DGPT: 2019 Great Lakes Open presented by DISCRAFT July 5-7

[SD86]

Technical courses like Idlewild where she has dominated the field two years in a row?

If you really wanted to Paige proof a course you would make a lot of holes that are around her max distance but have lots of OB.

But like someone else said, why would we want to set a course up to work against one of the only two truly solid players in the division. Having Paige and Cat both playing well and battling every tournament is the best case scenario for FPO until the field catches up to them.

I don't disagree, and no, I don't think the intent is to work against Paige P. The conversation is more like when the Members of Augusta National realized they had to "Tiger-proof" their course... that actually started when they saw Phil Mickelson abuse Hole #3. The point was to make the course challenging for all, and I believe that's what we're really discussing here.

I also would like to see more than just Paige P/Black Canary (Catrina) battles. I was glad to see Paige B contending after she won Worlds last year and in the first part of this year. Unfortunately, Sarah Hokom seems to have faded some. Hopefully another 'contendah' will step up and consistently challenge in the FPO field.

 

[biscoe]

Technical courses like Idlewild where she has dominated the field two years in a row?

If you really wanted to Paige proof a course you would make a lot of holes that are around her max distance but have lots of OB.

But like someone else said, why would we want to set a course up to work against one of the only two truly solid players in the division. Having Paige and Cat both playing well and battling every tournament is the best case scenario for FPO until the field catches up to them.

It is not setting up the course to work against the long throwers that is the goal. It is setting up the course to enable the field to play the game of golf fairly. The long throwers will have an advantage either way but the advantage should not manifest itself as holes where they have access to scores no one else does. The advantage should show itself in their being able to throw more controllable discs, etc.

I am currently working on the course setups for USWDGC in just this respect.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The problem with open courses like the ball golf temp layouts is being able to force shorter throws than max D where at least half the field or more can reach. For example, if you want a hole where the farthest MPO can throw is say 425, you either have to put an artificial OB "pond" in the fairway that goes from 430 to 570 or pinch the width of the fairway at that range with OB on both sides. Much easier to create fairer distances when you can design using trees tall enough to force more shot shaping.

 

[lyleoross]

Biscoe,

How do you answer those fans who say that distance is a/the primary aspect of the sport? I am asking this somewhat pedanticly, but I think the answer is important and appreciate your thoughts.

 

[biscoe]

Biscoe,

How do you answer those fans who say that distance is a/the primary aspect of the sport? I am asking this somewhat pedanticly, but I think the answer is important and appreciate your thoughts.

Distance is certainly a valuable skill. It should be rewarded. As i said above however the rewards should lie in having easier upshots, being able to reach more holes with more types of discs, etc.

It should not be rewarded for the most part with an ability to score a full stroke better on a bunch of holes than the opposition. This undermines the idea that we are playing the game of golf.

Fans who believe distance to be the primary aspect are quite simply wrong.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Fans who believe distance to be the primary aspect are quite simply wrong.

Maybe not Distance directly but net throwing Power does matter since even in the woods, being able to throw rounder edge discs the same distance as others using drivers will typically produce lower scores. The only holes where power doesn't pay off is short downhill holes where even beginners can use putters.

 

[teemkey]

It is not setting up the course to work against the long throwers that is the goal. It is setting up the course to enable the field to play the game of golf fairly. The long throwers will have an advantage either way but the advantage should not manifest itself as holes where they have access to scores no one else does. The advantage should show itself in their being able to throw more controllable discs, etc.

I am currently working on the course setups for USWDGC in just this respect.

I wish you success. DG is not going to increase in popularity when players win by double digits. The battle for 2nd place is just not as compelling as the battle for 1st.

 

[Steve West]

Maybe not Distance directly but net throwing Power does matter since even in the woods, being able to throw rounder edge discs the same distance as others using drivers will typically produce lower scores. The only holes where power doesn't pay off is short downhill holes where even beginners can use putters.

Power is still an advantage there. Stronger arms with throw a lower, straighter path. Weaker throwers will need to throw more of an arc, so the disc will wander off to the side before hitting the basket.

 

[SD86]

Power is great, but it's control of that power that is most important. :thmbup:

Jen Allen has power. But she doesn't beat Paige P on the courses, so sorry.

But we digress, perhaps?

 

[kenjiac]

Not using the rules to her advantage cost Vanessa Van Dyken a stroke on 17. She threw her 2nd shot into a thick bush in the fairway and she decided was impossible to play from her lie. She declared an abandoned throw, took a penalty stroke, and went back to her previous lie 250'+ back up the fairway. Her 4th throw (including penalty) went barely past the same bush, 5th throw upshot, then took a 2-putt for a 7.
She should have declared optional relief. She could have moved backward out of the bush to any location on the line of play. This would have given her the chance to take her 4th throw from much closer to the basket than using a re-throw. She could have come out of it with a 5.

Unless the TD declared as casual relief a bush is not a solid object no matter how dense it is to get optional relief from. She played as she should have or she could have gone into the bush. She can't do what you're suggesting

 

[chevis]

Unless the TD declared as casual relief a bush is not a solid object no matter how dense it is to get optional relief from. She played as she should have or she could have gone into the bush. She can't do what you're suggesting

optional relief always available for a stroke: 803.02 D.

A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.

 

[MattS]

I'm a bit annoyed by the implication from many of these posts that Paige's dominant win was simply a product of the course design and not something she really earned.

The real story is that Paige played magnificently.

Not only did she throw it farther than everyone else, she was also extremely accurate and completely avoided blow-up holes (zero OBs and double-bogeys). To top it off, she made more C2 putts than anyone else.

Great rounds from Paige are consistently 1000+ rated; this isn't new.

The same thing happened at Ledgestone, but Catrina also played awesome disc golf, so we were treated to the epic show-down. In fact, Paige's dominance over the field was even greater at Ledgestone, where she beat Lisa Fajkus by 16, Sarah Hokom by 20, and Madison Walker by 22 (just a sampling of the top finishers at DGLO who also played Ledgestone). I think the extreme distance of the middle holes on Toboggan played against Paige, because they were too hard for even her to reach C1 in regulation.

I'm not saying that the FPO layout of Toboggan is the greatest course ever for FPO competition. Certainly, you wouldn't want it to be the only course in a Major, and you wouldn't want too many to the DGPT stops to be just like it (just as you wouldn't want too many to be full of < 300ft holes with wicked-tight so-called "fairways"). But recognize that Toboggan didn't win by 12 strokes, Paige did.

When Paul McBeth won Throw Down the Mountain by fourteen strokes (14!!!), nobody talked about Paul-proofing anything. Great players sometimes ruin competition. Celebrate it.

 

[R-Ogre]

I'm a bit annoyed by the implication from many of these posts that Paige's dominant win was simply a product of the course design and not something she really earned.

Friggin preach.

 

[JC17393]

Unless the TD declared as casual relief a bush is not a solid object no matter how dense it is to get optional relief from. She played as she should have or she could have gone into the bush. She can't do what you're suggesting

Optional relief costs a penalty and can be taken at any time. Todd wasn't suggesting free relief, so casual relief or solid obstacle relief need not apply.

Vanessa was choosing to take a penalty by taking an optional re-throw. She could have taken the same penalty and saved herself 250-300 of distance by taking line of play relief behind the bush, which in turn may have saved her a throw on the scorecard.

 

[SD86]

I'm a bit annoyed by the implication from many of these posts that Paige's dominant win was simply a product of the course design and not something she really earned.

I did not get the impression that anyone is saying nor implying that Paige won because of the course design. Of course she played very well and was rewarded with a big win.

The conversation has been about how pin placements might affect the scores of the players, which IMHO is a legitimate conversation to have, and is not meant to be an insult to Paige's (nor anyone else's) actual play.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Power is great, but it's control of that power that is most important. :thmbup:

Understatement of the century.

I have a friend that has 500+ power. His throws are amazing sometimes. However, someone who can throw 250' accurately will destroy him every day of the week on the majority of disc golf courses in the world.

 

[kenjiac]

Optional relief costs a penalty and can be taken at any time. Todd wasn't suggesting free relief, so casual relief or solid obstacle relief need not apply.

Vanessa was choosing to take a penalty by taking an optional re-throw. She could have taken the same penalty and saved herself 250-300 of distance by taking line of play relief behind the bush, which in turn may have saved her a throw on the scorecard.

A. A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief.

B. If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface, the player may mark a new lie immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

C. A player who takes relief other than as allowed above receives one penalty throw.

D. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.

E. No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters

I've got to remember this one Thanks!!

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Understatement of the century.

I have a friend that has 500+ power. His throws are amazing sometimes. However, someone who can throw 250' accurately will destroy him every day of the week on the majority of disc golf courses in the world.

Depending on the course, and accurate noodle arm may beat an inaccurate bomber... or vice-versa.

HOWEVER... one thing increased distance allows you to do is throttle down the power and/or disc down. Part of the reason players who can throw 450 ft bag more birdies is that they can place 350 ft shots with more precision than players who can just make it out to 350 - 375.

When achieved through improved technique (rather than via more "oomph"), increased distance typically results in improved accuracy, specifically because those players can throw using less power.

So moar distance allows you to increased your birdie count birdies by:
1) Simply being able to reach more baskets (obviously).
2) Higher frequency of "quality looks" at baskets shorter than your max distance.

 

[Jolt]

Why was Barelas teeshot on hole 1 R3 OB? he out drove the OB ropes/OB area

 

[JC17393]

Why was Barelas teeshot on hole 1 R3 OB? he out drove the OB ropes/OB area

I assume it's because it's not a "lake" of OB that one can out drive. He landed on hole 17's fairway which might appear "safe" with the way the ropes are set up but is not actually in-bounds for hole 1.