Do big people have a natural distance advantage?

[MNcyclone]

OP, we stopped caring about you a while ago

How do you play crack the whip on anything BUT skates? Just on dry land? Seems like a stupid game then...

You said it in your post though, the arm accelerates the hand into the hit. A longer arm accelerates the hand into the hit faster then a shorter arm. Bravo! We are all winners!! :hfive:

 

[bthoma1]

You could gain weight and measure throws, then loose weight and measure. If you continue to gain distance then practice is the cause, but if your throws change with weight change, then you have a possible correlation.

WHOA, maybe that's why cubby has so many aces, he has me by 80 lbs.

Cubby aces are REAL

 

[Lithicon]

I didn't specifically say that. I don't think so at least. I'd like to 100% say for sure that isn't right. But, maybe I am wrong. I just don't personally see longer arms benefiting it enough to say that it's better than a shorter arm.

But, honestly I can't say I even know what crack the whip, on skates or otherwise is.

 

[sidewinder22]

Citing disc weight relative to body weight is a silly attempt to make it sound like you have any idea what is going on.

I am not a physics pro, but my understanding is that the disc being thrown is all about leverage. Form between 2 players being equal, the longer armed player with generate more speed around the middle of the rotation than a shorter armed player. If you are a player who rotates around the body (as opposed to a straight pull through), then an arm 1 inch longer equates to 3.14 inches more circumference. The extra 3 inches around the axis generate extra leverage/speed through the throw, resulting in more distance

That said, form is most important. Form > Leverage > Strength

Take a physics lesson Marshall Mathers. How is projectile mass to body weight silly?

If you weigh 200lbs, a max weight disc is only 0.2% of your weight! You really think that weighing 100lbs either way is going to make that much a difference on the amount leverage you can get on a disc that's anywhere from 0.15% - 0.4% of your weight?

Take a paper airplane, are you going to throw it any further than someone half your weight? No...because its nothing compared to either of your weights.

Now take a baseball, its roughly the same weight as a disc and look at Tim Lincecum, a generous 5'11" 172lbs and throws 100mph. Name a guy the same height that weighs more and throws faster...hurm?

If you take a football or basketball, its roughly 2.5x more mass than a disc or baseball. This is when you may begin to notice body weight's effect on leverage although longer levers make a bigger difference. Look at Michael Vick though, he bombs the same 70 yards and weighs much less and has shorter levers the Worthlessraper. Acceleration, timing, and mechanics are still far greater than body mass or lever length here.

Now take a shotput which is around 16% body weight at 100lbs and 8% body weight of 200lbs. This you will notice a difference because its much higher percentage of your body weight and body weight will significantly help leverage on the heavy projectile. So that's a 8% difference here on the shotput as opposed to the 0.2% difference on a disc.

The longer armed player generates more leverage at the end of the throw, not the middle. The middle of the throw brings the disc into the body as its a straight line. There is more leverage away from the body which is what happens at the hit, but since the disc weighs basically nothing for most adults it doesn't much matter unless the lever is significantly different like twice as long.

 

[i_throw_bricks]

If a player is throwing with a proper whipping motion, height, weight, arm length should have little effect. It's like a whip. As long as the whip has sufficient length, added length does not increase velocity at the tip. If you are swinging your arm out, arm length will matter, but that is improper form. Mass shouldn't matter one bit for either, only strength.

 

[slimshadyemb]

I think that spin, especially in this case, is more important than the mass of the projectile. A fat guy can't throw further than a small guy because a 175g disc is relatively less than the skinny guys body weight. Far more important ot measure spin on the disc and nose angle. Strength (incorrectly assumed to correlate with large) is less imporant than technique, and I assert leverage, (but honestly don't know)

Whatever gets you chucking it 450' (which I have to assume is claimed by more forum members than actually do it) is the way to make it happen

 

[i_throw_bricks]

Whatever gets you chucking it 450' (which I have to assume is claimed by more forum members than actually do it) is the way to make it happen

Agreed

 

[JoshEpoo]

Putting a lot of spin on a disc requires doing more work in less time, right at the end of the shot. Being stronger, having a better body type, being smart, being dedicated, and so on all help...

 

[MNcyclone]

It's like a whip. As long as the whip has sufficient length, added length does not increase velocity at the tip.

I hate to disagree (hell, no I don't) but this just isn't true in my completely non-scientifically based opinion. Here is my analysis of a disc throw.

An arm is not like a whip. Whips are totally elastic and this allows for a more complete conservation of energy down the length. There are no joints in a whip.

An arm has three joints that are manipulated; shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Between each joint is a load, being either your upper arm, lower arm, or your hand.

When you enter the pull, you are exerting force on the first load through the shoulder joint. This force travels through the upper arm, is converted into speed, and deposits into the elbow joint. The longer the upper arm, the more speed is translated into the elbow. The first load can be analogized to a hammer; it is swung on a fixed pivot, and the longer the handle (upper arm) the more speed and more energy goes into the resulting energy transfer (the elbow).

Energy (exibited as speed) is transfered into the elbow which flows into the second load (the lower arm) and the same thing happens that happened to the first load. The energy is converted into speed of the load (lower arm) which is passed into the wrist joint. Finally, the energy from the wrist joint is converted into speed of the hand.

When you throw a disc properly, a fourth joint is added, being the joint between your finger and the disc. The same thing happens here. Speed from your hand is converted into energy within the joint (finger) and this is converted into speed at the far end of the disc.

"half hitting" occurs when you do not add this fourth joint. Essentially, if you do not add the fourth joint, you are merely adding the diameter of the disc to the length of your arm in the last segment of the energy series. It is still effective at putting energy into the disc, but force will be limited to how much energy you can put into your hand. On the other hand, if you add the fourth joint you have two levers; one the length of your hand and another the length of the disc. The two levers working in a series produce more speed then just the one longer one because levers in a series don't merely add, they multiply.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think that spin, especially in this case, is more important than the mass of the projectile. A fat guy can't throw further than a small guy because a 175g disc is relatively less than the skinny guys body weight. Far more important ot measure spin on the disc and nose angle. Strength (incorrectly assumed to correlate with large) is less imporant than technique, and I assert leverage, (but honestly don't know)

If you actually read my posts I said that, the longer lever doesn't necessarily translate to snap, but momentum potential(arm speed). And the longer lever doesn't make much difference until you start talking about doubling the lever length.

Spin is very important, but it won't fly without speed. Snap is good combination of spin and speed. If you were to attach your wrist to your shoulder, you can get great spin, but not leverage or speed. If you have too much speed, its hard to get good spin.

I thought you said it was silly to talk about body mass vs projectile mass? At least get it right. Your leverage is backwards...a fat guy will theoretically throw further all things being equal, but its not really significant until you start talking about doubling the body weight, especially when the disc is less than 0.5% your body weight.

 

[i_throw_bricks]

If you actually read my posts I said that, the longer lever doesn't necessarily translate to snap, but momentum potential(arm speed). And the longer lever doesn't make much difference until you start talking about doubling the lever length.

Spin is very important, but it won't fly without speed. Snap is good combination of spin and speed. If you were to attach your wrist to your shoulder, you can get great spin, but not leverage or speed. If you have too much speed, its hard to get good spin.

I thought you said it was silly to talk about body mass vs projectile mass? At least get it right. Your leverage is backwards...a fat guy will theoretically throw further all things being equal, but its not really significant until you start talking about doubling the body weight, especially when the disc is less than 0.5% your body weight.

All other things being equal, the disc will go the same distance, no matter who throws it. The ONLY things that matter are spin, speed, and trajectory. The momentum of the disc is related to the speed and mass of the disc, not how fat the guy throwing it was.

 

[MNcyclone]

All other things being equal, the disc will go the same distance, no matter who throws it. The ONLY things that matter are spin, speed, and trajectory. The momentum of the disc is related to the speed and mass of the disc, not how fat the guy throwing it was.

Wrong. Momentum is related to speed and mass of the load you are trying to exert force on. There are more loads than the disc in a throw, see my post. The more mass that is present in each load the more momentum and angular force can be imparted into the system.

 

[MNcyclone]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just had an incredible revelation. The PDGA puts weight limits on discs, so we cannot increase the load at the disc level. The PDGA also limits how the weight is distributed in a disc by limiting rim width. Wide rimmed drivers have higher velocities on release because the load is situated farther away from the fulcrum. BUT, the PDGA does not have any limitation on increasing load on any other part of the system. Theoretically, if you increase the load at the end of any part of the system, you increase the angular and linear force at the end of the system.

SO, if you wear a weighted band on the end of your forearm, you increase the momentum carried over into the last part of the system, your disc. Putting a 5 pound weighted band right before your wrist would impart a much greater amount of force. I have to try this.

 

[Lithicon]

I have to say, I was wrong. So, the longer arm thing actually does apply here. But, I did actually happen to have an idea similar to that very thing with the weight while researching.

 

[sidewinder22]

All other things being equal, the disc will go the same distance, no matter who throws it. The ONLY things that matter are spin, speed, and trajectory. The momentum of the disc is related to the speed and mass of the disc, not how fat the guy throwing it was.

Do you read or understand counterweight leverage? Go back to my physics 101 post about paper airplanes, and shotput. If two counterweights are different but the disc speed/spin/trajectory are equal, then a lever must not be equal somewhere. I also said theoretically can throw farther by getting more leverage or arm speed and its really not really significant for adults because the relative mass of the disc is so low compared to adult body mass. Now take a 25lbs and 50lbs kid the same height, form, disc and tell me the 50lbs kid won't throw a little farther.

 

[i_throw_bricks]

Do you read or understand counterweight leverage? Go back to my physics 101 post about paper airplanes, and shotput. If two counterweights are different but the disc speed/spin/trajectory are equal, then a lever must not be equal somewhere. I also said theoretically can throw farther by getting more leverage or arm speed and its really not really significant for adults because the relative mass of the disc is so low compared to adult body mass. Now take a 25lbs and 50lbs kid the same height, form, disc and tell me the 50lbs kid won't throw a little farther.

I guess we have different definitions of all things being equal. My point is that if arm speed is the same, it doesn't matter. If you are able to leverage your weight for greater arm speed, then that is a different matter, but as you said, the weight of the disc compared to the weight of your arms is relatively insignificant. I suppose, in theory, one could balance this by wearing a weighted bracelet or watch that is the same weight as the disc, but this really wouldn't matter in the end.

 

[sidewinder22]

Throwing a disc is very similar to a trebuchet. There's a base, counterweight, lever, sling, and projectile.

Added weight to your wrist or hand won't help, it will slow your end acceleration and will probably injure yourself on followthrough since you don't release that weight. You want the most weight possible, furthest away from the base for the sling to work properly. Your wrist will want to keep moving instead of stopping to transfer the momentum to the disc. So there is no point adding extra weight between the counterweight and the actual projectile. Longer lever does provide more velocity.

I'd like to see a disc with weights added to opposite sides of the disc.

 

[MNcyclone]

The wrist will want to move, but that doesn't mean it will. Without stopping (or slowing) motion in the preceding part of the system nothing would accelerate, your initial arm speed at the pull would be it. Why can't I just stop my wrist from moving? Thats how it works regularly. It would just require more negative torque applied to my forearm.

None of this is to say it wouldn't blow up my elbow. That may be inevitable with added weight to the wrist. hmmm, yea, maybe I won't try this out, I kind of like my elbow...

 

[Lithicon]

I'd like to see a disc with weights added to opposite sides of the disc.

 

[Lithicon]

I'm going to start using one of these for hammer drills! LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLLLLZZZZZZ!