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Forehand Tutorial: How to Properly Lead with the Elbow

I've recently started throwing a lot of forehands and am having a lot of pain right above the elbow. Does anyone know what this issue could be from? Thank you
 
freakinwizzz said:
I've recently started throwing a lot of forehands and am having a lot of pain right above the elbow. Does anyone know what this issue could be from? Thank you
Click to expand...

Inside of the elbow, pinky finger side? If so that's golfer's elbow as a common term.

Usually seems to happen from getting the elbow way in front of the shoulder plane. Often people will turn back and swing the arm itself way back of the shoulder plane, then move the arm/elbow forward using the shoulder socket. If you video your form from the side you'll likely have an instant where the elbow is way ahead of your torso and your hand that puts the strain on your elbow.

I got this a while ago when I started throwing more FH's for power. I took some time off throwing them, like 1-2 weeks since it was minor, and learned to leverage the arm better rather than trying to snap the disc/hand at the target, which is how it felt for me when I had the elbow way too in front. I haven't had that issue since and I throw 50-75' farther FH than I used to when I got that pain.
 
Universal swing path

I think this is some fundamental kinetics of the FH swing that I've been missing. I came across this video on the Universal swing path (outward/inward) in regards to tennis. In my FH I had been bringing the disc backwards on the plane without the circling. Is what he is explaining correct for the FH? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeElHXkCG7g&feature=youtu.be&t=104
 
RFrance said:
I think this is some fundamental kinetics of the FH swing that I've been missing. I came across this video on the Universal swing path (outward/inward) in regards to tennis. In my FH I had been bringing the disc backwards on the plane without the circling. Is what he is explaining correct for the FH? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeElHXkCG7g&feature=youtu.be&t=104
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Definitely similar loop at the top of my FH backswing and agree with inside out swing path.
 
^^^
Thanks SW. I remember seeing that in your video but kind of put it on the back burner to incorporate later because at some point there was discussion about the nuances of the pros and how they did this.
 
RFrance said:
^^^
Thanks SW. I remember seeing that in your video but kind of put it on the back burner to incorporate later because at some point there was discussion about the nuances of the pros and how they did this.
Click to expand...
Same kind of loop motion with throwing baseball and football too.

BH is also similar with inside-out or narrow-wide from your center and loop transition even when you keep the disc still.
 
sidewinder22 said:
BH is also similar with inside-out or narrow-wide from your center and loop transition even when you keep the disc still.
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It's easy to see in the BH with the overhead markup you have with KJ on the top frame and the Rounding on the bottom frame.
 
I was watching Coach Madden talk about loading and unloading and this 30 second discussion (5:20 to 5:50) on the pronation at the release caught my attention when he said the pitching velocity didn't come from the "wrist snap" but from the pronation at the release https://youtu.be/-JU3XToHjqI?t=320. I tried it today and it definitely helped my FH. I was better able to hold onto the disc so I didn't get an early release and the disc ejected out flat and rode the line a lot further. I never had these good throws or felt this with the "karate chop" method.

Here's the whole video.

 
Yeah, karate chop and palm up would only make sense if your finger pads on the flight plate instead of the inside rim, but seriously restricts your release/followthru trying to keep palm up, it actually locks up the elbow.

Eagle going from supinated/external shoulder rotation to pronation/internal rotation - leading to hand turning over almost 180 degrees in 4 frames and snapping the disc thru the release. The arm/hand turning over allows the elbow to rehinge in followthru.
qTaSrj4.png
 
That's a lot of acceleration of the disc from the wrist and arm turning over in just 4 frames! Using the telephone pole in the background as a reference you can see how far his hand moves.

sidewinder22 said:
Yeah, karate chop and palm up would only make sense if your finger pads on the flight plate instead of the inside rim, but seriously restricts your release/followthru trying to keep palm up, it actually locks up the elbow.

Eagle going from supinated/external shoulder rotation to pronation/internal rotation - leading to hand turning over almost 180 degrees in 4 frames and snapping the disc thru the release. The arm/hand turning over allows the elbow to rehinge in followthru.
qTaSrj4.png
Click to expand...
 
My sidearm is terrible. Maybe 200' if I'm lucky. I just copied PMB's arm motion as a starting point. Turns out Stokely calls that the windmill. I will try the pendulum just to see the difference.
 
I was surprised today that the windmill seemed to suit me better. I'll need to continue to try them both during practice to see if that is best for me. It was pretty gusty, too, so that made it difficult for a fair comparison.
 
seedlings said:
My sidearm is terrible. Maybe 200' if I'm lucky. I just copied PMB's arm motion as a starting point. Turns out Stokely calls that the windmill. I will try the pendulum just to see the difference.
Click to expand...

A bit less visible than his arm motion, but Paul McBeth also grips his sidearm throws differently than most players.

Most players extend their index and middle fingers straight out together to form the classic "gun-hand" sidearm shape, with the side of your middle fingertip pressed against the inner rim of the disc. This is the classic ultimate frisbee flick grip and requires palm to be face-up through the throw, kinda like you're karate chopping the target. If you turn your hand over too early you will get off-axis torque that wobbles the disc and turns it into the ground. If you turn your hand over too late in the follow through (or not at all), you will stress your elbow on high power throws.

Paul McBeth curls his index finger in and puts his index fingertip against the inner rim of the disc closer to the meat of his hand, and keeps the middle finger extended out to a further point on the inner rim of the disc. This puts the hand in a much more natural palm-forward orientation and allows you to follow through much more naturally as if you're throwing a ball.

Just thought I'd point that out since it took me a while to recognize that PMB had a different grip. When I was throwing with the "gun-hand" grip, I absolute maxed at about 250ft for forehands, had elbow pain, and struggled to find the sweet spot between sky-hyzering and OAT burning the disc into the ground. After a few weeks of practice with the PMB grip, I increased my distance to 300ft, am pain free, and have better angle control. I'm sure there are still several things wrong with my throw technique (I've grown past 300ft but am still far from pro distance), but that grip switch was the largest and quickest improvement I've had with my forehand.
 
RocHucker said:
A bit less visible than his arm motion, but Paul McBeth also grips his sidearm throws differently than most players.

Most players extend their index and middle fingers straight out together to form the classic "gun-hand" sidearm shape, with the side of your middle fingertip pressed against the inner rim of the disc. This is the classic ultimate frisbee flick grip and requires palm to be face-up through the throw, kinda like you're karate chopping the target. If you turn your hand over too early you will get off-axis torque that wobbles the disc and turns it into the ground. If you turn your hand over too late in the follow through (or not at all), you will stress your elbow on high power throws.

Paul McBeth curls his index finger in and puts his index fingertip against the inner rim of the disc closer to the meat of his hand, and keeps the middle finger extended out to a further point on the inner rim of the disc. This puts the hand in a much more natural palm-forward orientation and allows you to follow through much more naturally as if you're throwing a ball.

Just thought I'd point that out since it took me a while to recognize that PMB had a different grip. When I was throwing with the "gun-hand" grip, I absolute maxed at about 250ft for forehands, had elbow pain, and struggled to find the sweet spot between sky-hyzering and OAT burning the disc into the ground. After a few weeks of practice with the PMB grip, I increased my distance to 300ft, am pain free, and have better angle control. I'm sure there are still several things wrong with my throw technique (I've grown past 300ft but am still far from pro distance), but that grip switch was the largest and quickest improvement I've had with my forehand.
Click to expand...

So PMB uses a peace sign fan grip? (Edit, I think you're saying PMB uses the sidearm power grip, kinda like an OK sign). I use the stacked fingers gun grip so my palm stays vertical, like I'm slapping someone in follow through.. Palm up always puts uncomfortable strain in shoulder and elbow. I've watched SW22 vid and something in copying that motion is also uncomfortable. I'm quite sure it's something I am doing. But, I flick nearly all my approach shots with very good success. It's adding the distance that feels so awkward. This Uliberry video was most helpful to me, even if he and Stokley maybe don't agree. At 1:40 of his video where throws the pink disc, that's my approach, and basically the extent of my sidearm. Adding more arm or walk up doesn't help.

 
Last edited:
seedlings said:
...I think you're saying PMB uses the sidearm power grip, kinda like an OK sign...
Click to expand...
Correct, like an OK sign.

seedlings said:
...It's adding the distance that feels so awkward... Adding more arm or walk up doesn't help.
Click to expand...

Yeah adding power is tricky. Have to make sure that your hand still "releases" at the hit point and your fingers follow-through before your wrist which follows through before your elbow... etc. To me, it *feels* like I stop my wrist at the point of release, allowing the hand and disc to take all of the momentum and whip through. That's probably not actually what's happening, but that feeling allows me to get more arm into my backswing without screwing up the throw. Also make sure that you're swinging the disc out and around your hand at release (but not before), almost like a ball on a string. You can add more arm speed to get more distance, just make sure you don't start dragging the disc through release (instead of dragging the disc TO release and then swinging it out and around THROUGH release by decelerating the wrist, as discussed above). My natural tendency was to try to almost push the disc under my hand through release or generally try to keep it too tight to my hand at release, which was wrong.

And I take a slow left-right-left shuffle into my high power forehands, but I take way less momentum into forehands than I do for backhands or else I end up screwing things up.

Sharing the tidbits that work for me, and should get you over 300ft, but I'll again give the disclaimer that I'm no expert.
 
I threw sidearms with the pistol grip for a long time because I was familiar with it from Ultimate, and found that my distance was pretty capped throwing that way. The pistol grip really does require you to keep your palm up longer in order to avoid a wobbly, rolling over throw. The sidearm power grip puts the arm/elbow/wrist in a much more natural position and allows you to follow through essentially the same as a baseball player throwing a ball sidearm. The lower arm needs to pronate through the release to take stress off of the elbow and wrist (look at major league pitchers throwing 95+ fastballs. They all do it).

Given the combination of higher distance potential and safety, I highly recommend learning the forehand power grip in Sidewinder's grip video.
 
SW's bent finger grip does allow for more distance moved by the wrist from extension and flexion vs. the shorter distance from the radial and ulnar deviation of the wrist from the "gun-hand" or pistol grip. I've tried this grip before and couldn't get used to it. I'm going to follow Uli's advice and work on the 20 foot drill throw using this. Does the power come from the middle finger and the index finger is used as a pivot point?
 
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