That's probably a conversation best conducted by PM.
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How I Would Change the PDGA
- Thread starter shive
- Start date
That's probably a conversation best conducted by PM.
turbosteve
Eagle Member
You're right. My apologies for asking a question that should have been conducted by pm.
shive
Par Member
Open players and discrimination
to crashzero (post #334):
Many people assume that I "despise most high level players" and would do nothing for them. Wrong. Over the last four years I have personally donated more than $5000 to add to the purses of Men's and Women's Open divisions in PDGA events.
If the choice of supporting Open players is free to all, I have no objection and am happy to do my part and maybe even a bit more. However, when the PDGA says that we must all contribute to the subsidy, whether we want to or not, then I object.
And when I object, people often say, "There's no discrimination, no inequity. Anyone is free to play in the Open division."
Anyone whose sense of fairness would require me, at the age of 72, to compete head to head with Open players makes a better case than I ever could that we need another disc golf association for non-Open players.
to crashzero (post #334):
Many people assume that I "despise most high level players" and would do nothing for them. Wrong. Over the last four years I have personally donated more than $5000 to add to the purses of Men's and Women's Open divisions in PDGA events.
If the choice of supporting Open players is free to all, I have no objection and am happy to do my part and maybe even a bit more. However, when the PDGA says that we must all contribute to the subsidy, whether we want to or not, then I object.
And when I object, people often say, "There's no discrimination, no inequity. Anyone is free to play in the Open division."
Anyone whose sense of fairness would require me, at the age of 72, to compete head to head with Open players makes a better case than I ever could that we need another disc golf association for non-Open players.
crashzero
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2009
- Messages
- 293
Shive, thank you for the answer. I can believe that you yourself do not despise open players. My statement was directed at the general anti-pro sentiment on this site and with a growing number of resentful AM's.
I think what the PDGA and the sport has done is create an entitlement mentality with AM's. They have pandered to lower players too much, and now they have taken away the motivation to improve and play at a higher level. Its easier to just turn against the pros than to try and become one, and now they have support on that stance.
If growing the sport at the lower levels is the answer, then we are already there. The number of casuals and rec players is exploding, but competitive and high level golf remains stagnant since it peaked in the early 2000's. Now we have eternal AM's that can play in various divisions forever if they choose. Pro's still aren't making any real cash so very few players even bother to move up. The PDGA allows this, I don't blame the players, I blame the decision makers for creating the environment we are in now.
I think what the PDGA and the sport has done is create an entitlement mentality with AM's. They have pandered to lower players too much, and now they have taken away the motivation to improve and play at a higher level. Its easier to just turn against the pros than to try and become one, and now they have support on that stance.
If growing the sport at the lower levels is the answer, then we are already there. The number of casuals and rec players is exploding, but competitive and high level golf remains stagnant since it peaked in the early 2000's. Now we have eternal AM's that can play in various divisions forever if they choose. Pro's still aren't making any real cash so very few players even bother to move up. The PDGA allows this, I don't blame the players, I blame the decision makers for creating the environment we are in now.
I'd be interested in hearing how you think there's more of an entitlement mentality in the am side of the sport than in the pros where it's expected that money will be taken from the am side of the tournament and TDs will spend volunteer time drumming up sponsorship money to pay them to play a game.
dscmn
Par Member
I think the most obvious example of entitlement in the AM ranks is the expectation of showing up at an athletic competition and not having to compete with those competitors who happen to be better than they are at that particular athletic endeavor.
Probably more accurate to say the Pros expect money to be added, and don't give much thought as to where it comes from.
Then again, I have the rare and radical opinion that the one thing the PDGA should really focus on is.....
is.....
Not one thing, but everything. I want the PDGA to simultanously try to grow the Pro Tour and disc golf in elementary schools. To support local league play and publicity to the broader public. To grow the wider world of disc golf, but also the tournament structure---because the tournament structure is one of its key functions---and so on.
is.....
Not one thing, but everything. I want the PDGA to simultanously try to grow the Pro Tour and disc golf in elementary schools. To support local league play and publicity to the broader public. To grow the wider world of disc golf, but also the tournament structure---because the tournament structure is one of its key functions---and so on.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
Yes.....very few people with an entitlement mentality consciously label themselves as such.
This clearly demonstrates what a toothless tiger you are Shive. I believe you as a director have an obligation to protect the finances of the "p"DGA. Looking the other way while delinquent TDs get free sanctioning is cowardly at best and a serious dereliction of duty.
If you don't have the courage to list the TDs and the staff members engaged in this fraudulent activity, you could pass the names to me and I'll be more than happy to shed some light on this.
Since apparently not all TDs need to pay, how about us current members? Could I get a refund on the membership I paid solely to compete in an A-tier this year? I'll eventually pay my membership dues again someday, like these TDs you are letting screw the rest of us.
DGRZ001
Eagle Member
The PDGA does post a list of suspended members, and the reason why. A few of them are on there for not paying fees, and the list is posted for the public to see.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
Holy guacamole! Mikey Kernan has arrived. DGCR Forums are slowly morphing into the PDGA DISCussion boards of yore.
Well......these boards are more tightly moderated.
DGRZ001
Eagle Member
MikeK from NoLa! You are right, he is here!
Where is the archived footage og Jonathan Gomez' 4 days of live coverage, that DGP.tv also provided for that amount? I need that information to make the comparison.
Holy guacamole! Mikey Kernan has arrived. DGCR Forums are slowly morphing into the PDGA DISCussion boards of yore.
If by that you mean anything goes except that which Holly F and her exquisite fanny pack does not approve, then yes. Otherwise you must have forgot the /sarc on that one.
I've been here longer than most btw. I can almost remember when Shive still had his own teeth.
dscmn
Par Member
How I would change the PDGA. Eliminate the PRO/AM distinction. Create two distinct types of tournament structures: divisional and open. The divisional structure will look much like a regular PDGA tournament today with divisions based on age or skill or both, left up to the discretion of the TD. The main difference would be an actual division (or two) above advanced, rather than an open "division." In the divisional structure competitors would accumulate points to gain an invitation to the divisional world championships. Competitors are always free to play "up" divisions.
Open tournaments would be just that, open to all competitors. Open tournaments would act as qualifiers for higher level events, culminating in the open world championships. Competitors would advance up through the ranks of a competitive system to achieve an invitation to this event. Perhaps the top 40-50% of the field in any particular tournament qualifies to advance to the next level (regionals, etc.). This satisfies those looking to disc golf as more of a serious, competitive sport.
Payout structures could be altered to better fit the new system. All competitors could be paid out in cash. If it's important to a competitor to retain true amateur status then payout could be made in merchandise. Payout structures could be reset in the more realistic 80-90% range to better compensate TDs. The "tour" would morph into a number of smaller mini-tours attracting a greater number of competitors.
In my opinion, this would provide each individual disc golfer with two distinct competitive outlets from which to choose. Everyone would be eligible to play in every single event, no need to restrict player options by needlessly calling them AM or PRO. A single competitor could win both a divisional world championships and an open world championships in the same year. I don't believe this would add much of a strain on the organization to achieve. And finally, charge everyone the same price to join the PDGA for crying out loud.
Open tournaments would be just that, open to all competitors. Open tournaments would act as qualifiers for higher level events, culminating in the open world championships. Competitors would advance up through the ranks of a competitive system to achieve an invitation to this event. Perhaps the top 40-50% of the field in any particular tournament qualifies to advance to the next level (regionals, etc.). This satisfies those looking to disc golf as more of a serious, competitive sport.
Payout structures could be altered to better fit the new system. All competitors could be paid out in cash. If it's important to a competitor to retain true amateur status then payout could be made in merchandise. Payout structures could be reset in the more realistic 80-90% range to better compensate TDs. The "tour" would morph into a number of smaller mini-tours attracting a greater number of competitors.
In my opinion, this would provide each individual disc golfer with two distinct competitive outlets from which to choose. Everyone would be eligible to play in every single event, no need to restrict player options by needlessly calling them AM or PRO. A single competitor could win both a divisional world championships and an open world championships in the same year. I don't believe this would add much of a strain on the organization to achieve. And finally, charge everyone the same price to join the PDGA for crying out loud.
Access to live video footage is irrelevant for the purpose of assessing DGPtv's production values vs. other content providers since Mr. Deusler specifically cited and linked DGPtv's postproduced video of The Memorial as evidence DGPtv's production capabilities.
shive
Par Member
Yes, but as I said, a number of delinquent TD's are not suspended and are allowed to continue to run tournaments. It doesn't help that a public list is posted, because their names are not on it, so members don't know who they are.
shive
Par Member
Toothless? Maybe, but not stupid.
Welcome to the thread, Mike. I have been expecting you. Better late than never.
I did what I could. Here's a motion from the June Board minutes.
"MOTION (Shive)
Starting in January 2014, the PDGA will inform the membership of all TD's who are delinquent in fee payments but are still being allowed to direct tournaments.
The motion does not receive a second and dies."
The rest of the Board obviously felt that it is in the best interests of the PDGA to keep the information secret from the membership. Yes, I could publish the names on my own, or give them to you to publish. And if I did, I would be violating a duty of confidentiality and would be promptly dismissed from the Board, with good reason. It would be stupid to go down in flames for this cause. There are bigger fish to fry.
I'm ready to get voted off, but not to betray a confidence that is part of the job I undertook. If that makes me toothless, so be it.
Welcome to the thread, Mike. I have been expecting you. Better late than never.
I did what I could. Here's a motion from the June Board minutes.
"MOTION (Shive)
Starting in January 2014, the PDGA will inform the membership of all TD's who are delinquent in fee payments but are still being allowed to direct tournaments.
The motion does not receive a second and dies."
The rest of the Board obviously felt that it is in the best interests of the PDGA to keep the information secret from the membership. Yes, I could publish the names on my own, or give them to you to publish. And if I did, I would be violating a duty of confidentiality and would be promptly dismissed from the Board, with good reason. It would be stupid to go down in flames for this cause. There are bigger fish to fry.
I'm ready to get voted off, but not to betray a confidence that is part of the job I undertook. If that makes me toothless, so be it.
turbosteve
Eagle Member
I can't find a copy of the June minutes on the PDGA site. Have they been posted yet?
