Ledgestone Analysis: Why do people not play proper divisions based player rating?

[Captain Bad]

For me personally, it's about challenging myself to live up to my own expectations. This will be my third season playing Advanced yet I've only ever been Advanced-rated once, briefly, after a good performance at BG Ams. I may not be consistent at it, but I know I can play Advanced-rated golf, so the drive is to perform at that level. Perhaps that is ego? Anyway, I don't care about winning per se; I care about performing at a higher level. If I do that, the winning/cashing will take care of itself.

The downside of all that is that I do tend to be very hard on myself when I fail to perform. Every missed putt is a tournament lost. Every shanked drive is another step down the leaderboard. It'd be easier in Intermediate for sure; I feel like I can cash and/or win there the majority of the time, but the performance would feel hollow. Again, I suppose that's ego.

 

[Vonbeezy1]

Sorry, but the "battle" for any place in an AM division is meaningless. If you win in AM you really won 73rd place in the tournament.

Hate to agree but this all day

 

[TurnBurn]

I'm not 900 rated yet but I always play intermediate.

If I knew rec was playing from the long tees I'd sign up for that for sure.

I've played tournaments where my round rating from the long tees, even though the score was a few strokes higher, came out to almost 50 to 100 points higher from the round played the next day from the shorts. In one tourney last year the shorts for the second round were played from soggy carpet teepads.

Part of why I play tournaments is because it's like playing "for real" compared to casual or weekly doubles. I don't want to pay to play 150 foot holes, and as far as winning the division, even first place as a pro in these local tournaments wouldn't cover the cost of travel and time from work.

 

[puck'n'disc5]

Uhh the battle for any Am winner is meaningless? Look, I'd much rather have cash, don't get me wrong, but, news flash, I'm a smart enough person to turn $1200 worth of plastic into actual paper that will pay actual bills, that have actual meaning.

 

[cooker]

I wish you had to qualify to play pro, had to play there if you qualify, and AM's couldn't pay their bills by undercutting dg retailers.

 

[DavidSauls]

it doesn't effect me in anyway; i live 2,000 miles away and have zero intentions of playing. this breakdown has zero emotional backbone... it's a neutral analysis of player ratings and PDGA guidelines based off curiosity of how those two components interacted with each other so far in the ledgestone tournament registration.

i'm not irritated, not sure why you think i am. i simply had been looking at the player classification page and then ended up at the ledgestone tournament page about 10 seconds later it i was shocked at how many players were registered for divisions that didn't fit their level of play based on the guidelines of the PDGA. then i decided to look at the numbers, come up with the results, and ask the community why people end up in divisions other than the ones that fit their rating. .

You also offered your less-than-neutral speculation about their motives, with phrases like "ignorance" and "inflated ego" and "mistake" to disparage their decisions:

. i wonder why more people don't sign up for the division that they are suggested to play based on their rating? is it simple ignorance to the suggested player rating for each division? is it an inflated ego thinking they are better than they are? was it a mistake when signing up and accidentally clicking the wrong division? maybe something else?

In addition to the dozen or so reasons already listed in this thread, some people "play up" because they prefer the attitudes of the higher divisions. More serious, better rules knowledge and compliance, etc. Lower-rated divisions are sometimes much more casual, and the player might prefer to lose in a serious division over winning in a casual one.

The idea of ratings-defined divisions is to group players of similar skill level. If you live in a region where almost everyone plays up, you might choose to go along, even if it's silly. So the Advanced Division turns out to really be an Intermediate division, and the Intermediate to be a Recreational one. Any one player has the choice of playing with his peers in the wrong division, or playing with weaker players in his correct division. He doesn't have the choice to set everyone straight.

You simply can't generalize about why players play up.

For what it's worth, there is a TD option for running ratings-based divisions, where everyone is grouped by rating regardless of pro/am status or age or, and I've played in such an event.

 

[DavidSauls]

Sorry, but the "battle" for any place in an AM division is meaningless. If you win in AM you really won 73rd place in the tournament.

Luckily for the guys 70 spots ahead, it's meaningful enough for those Ams to keep signing up---and underpinning the tournament structure for the pros.

 

[Vonbeezy1]

Uhh the battle for any Am winner is meaningless? Look, I'd much rather have cash, don't get me wrong, but, news flash, I'm a smart enough person to turn $1200 worth of plastic into actual paper that will pay actual bills, that have actual meaning.

You mean the $1200 of plastic that you actually ended up paying $1400 for based on entry fees?

 

[SonicGuy]

In the beginning there was only open. Then the sport got slightly larger and fields were big enough that a separation of talent appeared. The less talented wanted to play organized rounds against one another without the added stress of actually competing against good players. Am competition was formed. In the beginning it was always assumes that Am was the sideshow that you hoped to grow out of. If you win you moved up, because Am isn't for winners, it is for schlubs that don't care as much about the competition.

Today people act like Am came first and they made higher divisions to accommodate the better players. No, your Am division was formed to accommodate your lower skill and self confidence. If you play Am you are playing in the handicapped division. Don't pretend that it is some equal form of competition with open.

This is in the opinion of an open division donater. If you find the nerve to play against people that you know are more skilled than you I salute you. DFL in open is by default a better finish than 1st in advanced, because you showed the strength of character to dare to achieve.

 

[fasteddie]

meh, you're slowing down everyone's day. Play your rating, move up when your skill merits it...

 

[DavidSauls]

Ah, the age-old sports fallacy of confusing athletic ability with virtue.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

This is in the opinion of an open division donater. If you find the nerve to play against people that you know are more skilled than you I salute you. DFL in open is by default a better finish than 1st in advanced, because you showed the strength of character to dare to achieve.

The problem is, most people play disc golf to enjoy themselves. For 99% of golfers it is more entertaining competing against players of similar experience level. Not to mention, it is the large turnouts for the am divisions that often fuel the MPO payouts you aren't winning. Noble work you are doing, though.

 

[MichaelWebster]

This is in the opinion of an open division donater. If you find the nerve to play against people that you know are more skilled than you I salute you. DFL in open is by default a better finish than 1st in advanced, because you showed the strength of character to dare to achieve.

To win in advanced you have to actually win, which means beating everyone else in your division despite the pressure and nerves. Learning how to play under pressure and win a tournament is a skill in itself, regardless of division. Both of my open wins last year were easier because of my experiences having played advanced.

 

[DavidSauls]

Which makes me wonder, how much nerve does it take to play in a division where you're completely overmatched? When I've done it---for reasons unrelated to challenge or bravado---I found having absolutely no chance to be pretty low-pressure, even relaxing.

 

[TAFL]

This is in the opinion of an open division donater. If you find the nerve to play against people that you know are more skilled than you I salute you. DFL in open is by default a better finish than 1st in advanced, because you showed the strength of character to dare to achieve.

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Three Putt]

Which makes me wonder, how much nerve does it take to play in a division where you're completely overmatched? When I've done it---for reasons unrelated to challenge or bravado---I found having absolutely no chance to be pretty low-pressure, even relaxing.

Just one man's experience: When I turned 40 and could play Master's I went to a few events where some old friends who I had not been on a card with in years were playing. They were playing Open Master's. I didn't have a ghost's chance in hell of cashing in Advanced Master's, but I played up a division in Open Master's anyway just to hang around with old friends for the weekend. There was no pressure at all. I played surprisingly well for me, didn't cash but didn't DFL and had a lot of fun. Once I moved back down to Adv Master's, my scored slipped. All those missed putts and early tree hits came back with a vengeance once I started looking at my competition thinking I had a realistic chance to cash.

It makes two arguments, though. The first is that it really takes no guts at all to play up a division, just a lack of caring about your realistic chance of cashing. The other is that from a fun perspective, it can be that. Since it's already established that you don't care about cashing, the fact that it can be fun is worth considering.

 

[ru4por]

Sorry, but the "battle" for any place in an AM division is meaningless. If you win in AM you really won 73rd place in the tournament.

And this is the reason why, you are the guy that keeps many from playing pro.

 

[Moose33]

I can't see why everyone does, but I am a 967 rated player. I would like to think that as I am prove I will be over 970 within the next few months, at least skill wise. So for the time being even though I could play advanced it would be rare for me not to play pro.

 

[sillybizz]

"If you want to get better, play with better players" is a myth designed to get more people to sign up for advanced and open so that the prize pool grows larger with dead money. Just my opinion.

 

[AndyJB]

"If you want to get better, play with better players" is a myth designed to get more people to sign up for advanced and open so that the prize pool grows larger with dead money. Just my opinion.

Using that blanket statement is as ridiculous as the original statement that you are against.

That said, I dont generally agree with the "move way ahead of your skill level to get better" idea. To me, its similar to the old trope of "only throw putters until you can throw them x distance"....there may be good intentions behind these things, but they just dont hold true for everybody.

If you took 3 875 rated players or similar age, height and physical makeup and had them all play an A-Tier in Advanced, I bet you would find 1 guy doing significantly worse than normal, 1 guy staying the same and 1 guy playing significantly better than usual. There"s no rhyme or reason to it.

Therefore, I will never encourage someone to play up to get better, neither will I discourage them if they come to such a conclusion themselves. Usually, the player has a pretty good idea of why they are moving up...and they know themselves better than you know them.

As to the flippant "pros" on here who are saying Ams are worthless: until you're competing for top cash at a National Tour event, then your little C-Tier win over the local "pros" is just as meaningless. Sword swings both ways, hotshots.