Let's talk Deer Lakes

[discNDav]

I drive past the Pittsburgh area at least once a year and always stop by Deer Lakes or Moraine, both are 4.5 in my book. Both are better than Knob Hill which I liked a lot in the 90's before these two newer courses were installed 'recently'. With 3 tees each course can play easy or hard.

My complaint about Deer Lakes was the water/mud problems although I've seen it get better it's not totally fixed that I know of. Moraine has a few too many repetitive low ceiling approach shots for my liking. Deer Lakes > Moraine but not by much. Pittsburgh is a great area for DG!

 

[vslaugh]

On the other hand, I felt there were a few wooded holes (1,5,6,14 I think) where there was a lack of a clear line to throw through, which is annoying.

Two of the worst offenders were removed last September...a skinny tree in the middle of the fairway on Hole 13 (after my whining to J. Gary) and another tree over the first ravine on Hole 14.

Otherwise, I approve of almost all of Deer Lakes' fairways, and the lanes look bigger and bigger every time I play the course. When it's all said and done, I don't think I'd want to remove any trees on the Front 9. Considering it hole-by-hole,

1 is good to me (you need to know where to put your drive)
5 definitely has routes. They're tough, but it's the course's only putter-through-the-clown's-mouth hole, so I wouldn't want to relax it too much.
6 is my favorite hole on the course. I'll chain myself to those trees before they get cut down. Just kidding...I love taking a route with a beat DX Cobra that tries to cut the corner and plays plinko with that stand of trees, so taking out one or two of those trees would remove an element of bad luck there.
11 is a little problematic (there's an awful skinny tree over the ravine I kept hitting going for 'A' pin), but I would hesitate to remove trees because of erosion concerns.
14 can be frustrating as sometimes a perfect looking drive can hit a tree between the two ravines, but most of the time you'll be fine as long you get a little past the first ravine. (Hint: stay left from the blue tees...the right lane is a trap)

I've also read criticism of Hole 3 that trees need trimmed presumably to raise the ceiling, but I disagree. If anyone takes a route that high, the disc is most likely headed for a lot of trouble anyways.

 

[jkdisc]

deer lakes is the best course ive played so far, ive played 48 courses now.

 

[allinpflop]

What this course really needs is what is happening this summer......many top pros from across teh country getting the chance to play it at an NT Event!!! I think that we will be able to get some really valuable feedback after that tournament. I feel like the course stacks up nicely against the other top 20 courses I have played but what the heck do I know as I have only played 82 courses so far.


P.S. Vince do you still have my white SL left at Deer Lakes?

 

[vslaugh]

What this course really needs is what is happening this summer......many top pros from across teh country getting the chance to play it at an NT Event!!! I think that we will be able to get some really valuable feedback after that tournament. I feel like the course stacks up nicely against the other top 20 courses I have played but what the heck do I know as I have only played 82 courses so far.


P.S. Vince do you still have my white SL left at Deer Lakes?

Yeah, I'm really excited about this tournament. I was alarmed when I first heard that the 2011 PFDO wasn't going to include Deer Lakes, but fortunately thinks have worked out well. I'm a little afraid, though, that the blue tees will not be difficult enough for them, and that it's necessary to shoot at least -10 just to stay in contention.

And, yes, the SL is still in the trunk of my car I'll try to remember to get it to you or Tim next time I see either of you.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You've got nothing to worry about. Only three courses in Pro Worlds history have higher SSAs than Deer Lakes blue tees:
http://www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course?RatingCourseID=3509
http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/...r-event-bids/pro-worlds-course-rating-history

 

[vslaugh]

You've got nothing to worry about. Only three courses in Pro Worlds history have higher SSAs than Deer Lakes blue tees:
http://www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course?RatingCourseID=3509
http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/...r-event-bids/pro-worlds-course-rating-history

I guess it shouldn't be too bad. I see Barry Schultz shot a 1048-rated -10 56 last year, so it looks like a 6/6/6 A/B/C pin positions should be sufficiently difficult.

Thinking theoretically, Chuck, let's say you have a Par 66 course with 18 well-designed holes according to your set round rating target to be played by top MPO players. Do you have a preference for where to set that round rating target? 950? 1000? 1050? Somewhere in the middle?

In other words, should the worst player be shooting par? Best player be shooting par? Median player shooting par?

And, does it matter in making PDGA tournaments look more or less professional and legitimate?

 

[NothinButChing]

looks cold

 

[vslaugh]

Re-writing for an attempt at clarity,

I guess it shouldn't be too bad. I see Barry Schultz shot a 1048-rated -10 56 last year, so it looks like a 6/6/6 A/B/C pin positions should be sufficiently difficult.

Thinking theoretically, Chuck, let's say you have a Par 66 course with 18 well-designed holes according to your set round rating target for a score of 66 to be played by top MPO players. Do you have a preference for where to set that round rating target for a score of 66? 950? 1000? 1050? Somewhere in the middle?

In other words, should the worst player be shooting par 66? Best player be shooting par 66? Median player shooting par 66?

And, does it matter in making PDGA tournaments look more or less professional and legitimate?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Since Deer Lakes is a blue-gold course, I would set each pin for the best gold level challenge for the event. You may have some easy par 4s for blue in the short pin that would be tough par 3s for gold. So maxing every pin isn't necessarily the best setup. In theory, a blue par 66 is really a gold par 60-62 but it's usually tough to knock off a whole throw from par on a hole since true gold par is really about a 1/3 of a shot better than true blue par per hole. The best gold setup may actually be playing some of the par 5s from the white tee and calling them a gold par 4 like maybe 3, 9 or 14 rather than playing them perhaps as an easier par 5 from the blue tee.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

I would think from an entertainment aspect, you would want your top players to break par. Birdies are more exciting than pars. But from a competition standpoint you don't want 10-12 under as a norm. I think if the top pros hit 60 or 59 as low score that would be awesome. Man I wish I could shoot a 59 @ Deer Lakes! I would have drainage problems in my pants if that happened. :\

 

[WillGrrr]

Deer Lakes is the course that made me the golf fool I am today.

I'm distressed that you wish to make #9 more difficult!

 

[vslaugh]

Since Deer Lakes is a blue-gold course, I would set each pin for the best gold level challenge for the event. You may have some easy par 4s for blue in the short pin that would be tough par 3s for gold. So maxing every pin isn't necessarily the best setup. In theory, a blue par 66 is really a gold par 60-62 but it's usually tough to knock off a whole throw from par on a hole since true gold par is really about a 1/3 of a shot better than true blue par per hole. The best gold setup may actually be playing some of the par 5s from the white tee and calling them a gold par 4 like maybe 3, 9 or 14 rather than playing them perhaps as an easier par 5 from the blue tee.

Interesting...we'll have to see how statistical elegance weighs against administrative simplicity. As nice statistically as it would be to do use the best gold level tee/pin combo for each hole (and it would be a fun exercise to figure that out), using different tees within a round for one player group could be something I wouldn't want to touch with a ten-foot pole. Have you ever seen anything like that executed well, Chuck?

 

[vslaugh]

I would think from an entertainment aspect, you would want your top players to break par. Birdies are more exciting than pars. But from a competition standpoint you don't want 10-12 under as a norm. I think if the top pros hit 60 or 59 as low score that would be awesome. Man I wish I could shoot a 59 @ Deer Lakes! I would have drainage problems in my pants if that happened. :\

Yeah, that was one stupid silly day. Don't really know what to think about it.

 

[vslaugh]

Deer Lakes is the course that made me the golf fool I am today.

Me too.

I'm distressed that you wish to make #9 more difficult!

The problem is that longer-armed pros from the blues and advanced ams from the whites can bomb drives over the trees landing 100-200' from the corner of the grass. It's not far from there to the A and B pins, especially with the decline, so it could be embarrassing for the course to have some players throwing a 250' approach shot with a putter for their 2nd shot on what's supposed to be a Par 5. I think that's why the pin hasn't been moved from the 'C' location for a long time.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Yeah, that was one stupid silly day. Don't really know what to think about it.

Awesome! You birdied 3 & 5, but not 4. Interesting... that's usually my guaranteed birdie chance.

On a side note, if you need help this summer getting the course in shape, PM me.

 

[Mulligan]

Here's a list of interesting/semi-interesting animals I've run into at Deer Lakes. Anyone have any good ones to add?

Porcupine (Hole 2)
Box Turtle (Hole 7, 15)
Garter Snake (Hole 10)
Birds: Downy Woodpecker, Blue Heron, Hawks

Oh, and...Deer!!!

Thats crazy, I totally ran into a box turtle at Knob Hill way back in the day...

 

[Cgkdisc]

As nice statistically as it would be to do use the best gold level tee/pin combo for each hole (and it would be a fun exercise to figure that out), using different tees within a round for one player group could be something I wouldn't want to touch with a ten-foot pole. Have you ever seen anything like that executed well, Chuck?

What you do is permanently mark the "gold" tees in advance so the gold course is known. We have some courses out there with two sets of tees - Blue and Red. However, the best of the two tees for White level is also painted on that tee and marked on the sign. So the White tees marked on the first six holes might be: Blue, Blue, Red, Red, Blue, Red.

The interesting thing in the case of Deer Lakes is that your "Gold" course would be shorter than the max blue course but would be the best challenge overall for the gold level players in terms of beating the lower gold par which might be 60-62.

 

[Myers]

What you do is permanently mark the "gold" tees in advance so the gold course is known. We have some courses out there with two sets of tees - Blue and Red. However, the best of the two tees for White level is also painted on that tee and marked on the sign. So the White tees marked on the first six holes might be: Blue, Blue, Red, Red, Blue, Red.

The interesting thing in the case of Deer Lakes is that your "Gold" course would be shorter than the max blue course but would be the best challenge overall for the gold level players in terms of beating the lower gold par which might be 60-62.

This is an awesome idea. i think that this course is great. I love the longer layout and true par 4's and 5's. I completely agree though that there are some easy birds or some really difficult pars at this course from the Blues. I think the best option is to set the course so that the optimal score would be par. even if par was lowered to 62. Don't get me wrong I love all the par 66 courses and J Gary's designs, but as far as an NT event it would be awesome to only see the top tier of players actually under par. just my thought

 

[optidiscic]

true gold ssa of 5 yields higher scores
true gold ssa of 4.5 yields more score separation and a more interesting round
longer is not always better
I'd like to see a course of all 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 the ssa nerds who want round numbers would hate it but it would make for a great tourney course with all the fluctuations
Deer Lakes has a bunch of tweener holes and I think of that as a strength and not a weakness
There is nothing wrong with hole 14....I get sick of people who don't enjoy true woods golf