Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter

[tbird888]

I would suggest that it is more than a little misleading for discs to be sold to consumers as a "PDGA approved" mold, when in reality the disc itself needs to be individually weighed and flex tested to actually comply with the listed rules from the PDGA. One or the other needs to change. How much cost would there actually be to the PDGA to simply fine companies that produced "approved" discs that didn't comply with the rules? Or eliminate the rules. I feel it is insulting for the PDGA to try to mitigate their legal responsibilities by placing the onus of enforcement on an untrained member of their organization.

There's more to being PDGA approved than weight and flex. If you're going to enforce one or two standards, you have to enforce them all.

There is a simple solution to this issue. And a money making one at that. It's too simple really, which is why it probably wouldn't work.

Make it a premium for a disc to be "PDGA Approved". Manufacturers would have to pay the org a fee for each disc stamped or advertised as "PDGA Approved". In turn they could charge a premium price for a premium product. Provide some (financial) consequence for the manufacturer who sells a disc that's marked as approved, but fails the test, such as not being able to sell for the premium price (in other words, not being able to stamp anything approved) for a specified time.

Again, considering how few competitive golfers there are vs casuals, a company could walk away from the PDGA. Consider Innova, and their big box store contracts. Thinking about their quality as of late (Jolly Launcher is new plastic. Wait a little while and see if all discs they run in this plastic are as nice as the Roc3 and Tern), do you think they really care about competitive players?

 

[biscoe]

only a matter of time before some TD has to deal with a huge can of worms over this issue...

 

[smyith]

I would suggest that it is more than a little misleading for discs to be sold to consumers as a "PDGA approved" mold, when in reality the disc itself needs to be individually weighed and flex tested to actually comply with the listed rules from the PDGA. One or the other needs to change. How much cost would there actually be to the PDGA to simply fine companies that produced "approved" discs that didn't comply with the rules? Or eliminate the rules. I feel it is insulting for the PDGA to try to mitigate their legal responsibilities by placing the onus of enforcement on an untrained member of their organization.

Where is Cochran when you need him. Seems to me there could be legal ground for false advertising. That being an illegal disc being stamped legal by the manufacturer. An easy way to fix a problem is to get courts involved. ultimately, this would just result in manufacturers removing pDGA approved from their discs.
compliance doesn't need to start with the players and its stupid to think they should. I don't think any TD should enforce these rules either. If the top of the business doesn't care to comply no one should.
This is also why you buy discs online from specific people/companies. The ones that care enough to true weight a disc for you. And even then I still buy at least a gram lighter to ensure I am safe.
I am not a rule follower in the majority of my life, but when it comes to competition I like to abide, solely for the sake of sportsmanship. Knowingly circumventing the rules is cheating, and if you have to cheat to win then it isn't a real victory. But that is me, and now that I know the bs basis behind the rules I will NEVER call it on someone, but I will continue to abide myself.

 

[Djmutiny]

Where is Cochran when you need him. Seems to me there could be legal ground for false advertising. That being an illegal disc being stamped legal by the manufacturer. An easy way to fix a problem is to get courts involved. ultimately, this would just result in manufacturers removing pDGA approved from their discs.
compliance doesn't need to start with the players and its stupid to think they should. I don't think any TD should enforce these rules either. If the top of the business doesn't care to comply no one should.
This is also why you buy discs online from specific people/companies. The ones that care enough to true weight a disc for you. And even then I still buy at least a gram lighter to ensure I am safe.
I am not a rule follower in the majority of my life, but when it comes to competition I like to abide, solely for the sake of sportsmanship. Knowingly circumventing the rules is cheating, and if you have to cheat to win then it isn't a real victory. But that is me, and now that I know the bs basis behind the rules I will NEVER call it on someone, but I will continue to abide myself.

I agree. Personally, I'm not very concerned with this particular issue. I do like to follow the rules as closely as possible. This business of having a governing body that passes the governing task on as much as possible has got to stop. Why even bother?

 

[tbird888]

only a matter of time before some TD has to deal with a huge can of worms over this issue...

They're not spread thin at all. Should make for good times.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

Just curious, how does golf go about this dilema? I was an avid ball golfer in high school, not once were ball specs brought up. Most of my balls came from the bottom of a pond, most of them had major manufacturer names on it, some of them just a company logo, or all info had been worn off. But not once did I (or anybody else) question whether the balls were legal.

I assume it's different in top tier play (but I'm just guessing at this point). Do balls labled with titlelist, or nike, or taylor made meet pga requirements because the balls are expected to leave the factory meeting guidelines? Are balls spot checked? Does every ball a tour player use require a series of checks? Is there counterfeit balls? or balls produced that don't meet guidelines? Are they released to the public? Are they marked as such? Is there any more questions that I should ask at this point?

 

[tbird888]

Just curious, how does golf go about this dilema? I was an avid ball golfer in high school, not once were ball specs brought up. Most of my balls came from the bottom of a pond, most of them had major manufacturer names on it, some of them just a company logo, or all info had been worn off. But not once did I (or anybody else) question whether the balls were legal.

I assume it's different in top tier play (but I'm just guessing at this point). Do balls labled with titlelist, or nike, or taylor made meet pga requirements because the balls are expected to leave the factory meeting guidelines? Are balls spot checked? Does every ball a tour player use require a series of checks? Is there counterfeit balls? or balls produced that don't meet guidelines? Are they released to the public? Are they marked as such? Is there any more questions that I should ask at this point?

They're QC'd at the factory. Their procedure was explained in one of the other threads on this topic.

It would be great if all this info were in one place so it were more easily accessible.

 

[NOSteveLA]

But they're on dedicated land. You're not going to find a familiy camping/having a picnic in one of the fairways on a golf course. You also won't find a wedding party taking photos.

I guess private vs public was a bad argument. Perhaps dedicated vs multi-use?

You will see those very things happening on our courses....yes bad arguement indeed.

 

[pineappletrees]

Test every disc at the factory on the scale and put a 'PDGA Approved' stamp on those which pass and not include it on those who don't pass. That way frolfers don't notice and golfers can make sure they're legal.

Simple.

 

[tbird888]

Test every disc at the factory on the scale and put a PDGA Approved stamp on those which pass and not include it on those who don't pass. That way frolfers don't notice and golfers can make sure they're legal. Simple.

What about the flex test? How about rim width and depth? Rim configuration? It's not as easy a fix as you're making it out to be. All standards are important, not just one. Weight is just the easiest to determine.

 

[scarpfish]

Test every disc at the factory on the scale and put a 'PDGA Approved' stamp on those which pass and not include it on those who don't pass. That way frolfers don't notice and golfers can make sure they're legal.

Simple.

And requires extra intensive labor. Extra labor means extra cost going into the finished product, even for the failed discs. You also have to consider what to do about the millions of discs already out there with PDGA approved on them that weren't subjected to the same QC standards when they were made.

 

[scarpfish]

There is a simple solution to this issue. And a money making one at that. It's too simple really, which is why it probably wouldn't work.

Make it a premium for a disc to be "PDGA Approved". Manufacturers would have to pay the org a fee for each disc stamped or advertised as "PDGA Approved". In turn they could charge a premium price for a premium product. Provide some (financial) consequence for the manufacturer who sells a disc that's marked as approved, but fails the test, such as not being able to sell for the premium price (in other words, not being able to stamp anything approved) for a specified time.

You know why that wouldn't work? Because the people who buy from the manufacturers are the source of the money and therefore the manufacturers would tell the PDGA to go f*** themselves long before it ever got to that. The great majority of disc golf consumers don't want to pay a premium price for something that doesn't mean anything to them.

 

[ohtobediscing]

There is a simple solution to this issue. And a money making one at that. It's too simple really, which is why it probably wouldn't work.

Make it a premium for a disc to be "PDGA Approved". Manufacturers would have to pay the org a fee for each disc stamped or advertised as "PDGA Approved". In turn they could charge a premium price for a premium product. Provide some (financial) consequence for the manufacturer who sells a disc that's marked as approved, but fails the test, such as not being able to sell for the premium price (in other words, not being able to stamp anything approved) for a specified time.

First, we're already paying premium prices for a piece of plastic [go to a dept. store and look at anything about the size of a disc that's made COMPLETELY out of plastic. Nothing comes close to the price of a premium disc.]
Second, this is a solution in search of a problem. We need neither a middleman gleaning his fortune from a cut of this action nor a "government" sanction that manufacturers toe the line or don't sell competition discs.

PDGA would cut its own throat with this idea. DG would go on for the common man and the manufacturers, but sanctioned tourneys would end, there'd be no pros, and the PDGA would fold like a French surrender monkey.

 

[tbird888]

...go to a dept. store and look at anything about the size of a disc that's made completely out of plastic. Nothing comes close to the price of premium plastic...

I'll bet that those cheap pieces of plastic are more consistent across the board as well...

And it's Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey.

 

[Halcón]

I'll bet that those cheap pieces of plastic are more consistent across the board as well...

How do you know how much waste they have? Regrind? The vast majority of that stuff comes from huge factories overseas anyway. You can't compare that to small disc manufacturers. (Even Innova is small, comparatively)

 

[tbird888]

How do you know how much waste they have? Regrind? The vast majority of that stuff comes from huge factories overseas anyway. You can't compare that to small disc manufacturers. (Even Innova is small, comparatively)

If MVP can effectively produce consistent discs from run to run at a competitive price, the other manufacturers should be able to do it as well. (MVP is smaller than Innova...and where are they produced?).

 

[smyith]

If MVP can effectively produce consistent discs from run to run at a competitive price, the other manufacturers should be able to do it as well. (MVP is smaller than Innova).

owned

I wish I liked MVPs plastic. I would love to support them

 

[tbird888]

owned

I wish I liked MVPs plastic. I would love to support them

I kind of agree. I just never bonded with their putter or mid cores, but I like their plastic.

 

[pineappletrees]

And requires extra intensive labor. Extra labor means extra cost going into the finished product, even for the failed discs. You also have to consider what to do about the millions of discs already out there with PDGA approved on them that weren't subjected to the same QC standards when they were made.

It's not that much more. They already weigh each one. Just bend it while you're at it. You then have two piles to stamp. It's really not that much more work. $1 more for PDGA discs doesn't bother my wallet at all if it came down to it.

As for the existing discs, they should be allowed. Grandfathered discs should be included. Only discs that says "Non PDGA Compliant" should be disallowed.

 

[Halcón]

If MVP can effectively produce consistent discs from run to run at a competitive price, the other manufacturers should be able to do it as well. (MVP is smaller than Innova...and where are they produced?).

Exactly. I was responding to your post about department store pieces of plastic and their apparent consistency.