Pay to Play? Is it Okay?

[Cgkdisc]

All 540 members contributed money and/or time to build those courses?

 

[discdoh]

All 540 members contributed money and/or time to build those courses?

By joining the club, all 540 are actively supporting the club. Every single member paid $20 (or $25 w/disc) to join. The proceeds go directly back into the courses. Of course not all of them helped install the courses, etc., but at least they are showing support.

 

[hiflyer]

...Everyone seems to have the $ to show up at the local FREE course with the latest new $120 DG bag, the latest new discs at $17 each, a Qdoba bag lunch, a 6 pack of microbrew, a pack of smokes, and an ounce of MJ, while talking about the concert/movie/game/etc they are going to go to tonight, but GOD forbid we (tax-payers) ask them to pay a few of those dollars they supposedly don't have, on the upkeep of a huge plot of Our (tax-payers) land. Try to go and find something else you can do for free on 25 acres of someones land, that they have spent countless hours, and 20 thousand dollars creating this "something" for you to do. Please let me know how that works out for you. Get real PP :doh:.

So am i to understand that everyone but "we" or "our" doesn't pay taxes? You are ridiculous. Also, when "everyone" bought those bags, discs, microbrews, they payed an additional tax to buy it. Beyond the tax they payed to get that money in the first place. And now you want to tax them again just to use your (probably poorly maintained) frolf course? Then take into consideration "everyone" will probably buy a few things in your little town or pro shop (i.e. extra water, munchies to go with that MJ, etc) further increasing your tax revenue. I think you need to stop being such an elitist and realize you are not the king of the world.
BTW, love is free, but you probably feel the need to pay for that too.

 

[harr0140]

These are good points, however, I am letting my idealism get the best of me here. I do not deny that free courses are out there. Or that you could haul a practice basket around a public park and make your own course. When I was introduced to disc golf, I was under the impression that being free was just part of the game. I understand that it costs money to take care of courses, I do. I simply believe there are other ways to earn an income without charging for play directly.

My worry is that pay to play courses will become so prevalent that in 20 years, any course worth playing will cost $10 a round plus. At that point for me the sport is ruined. It's not always about playing the fanciest best maintained courses. Sometimes you just want to play. Some people will certainly disagree with me for this, but I golf for fun. If I have to wait a few minutes for some newer players in front of me to finish, I don't care. If the grass on the fairways is shin-high, it's fine with me. Winning and keeping score can be fun, but they are certainly not at the top of my priority list. Having a well manicured course is awesome, but is it worth the risk of losing something that truly made this sport different? My personal golf goal is to play as many courses worldwide as possible. But if I end up spending my life savings just because some golfers don't want to play with inexperienced people on the course, well that sucks.

And as far as the "if you don't want to pay then don't play those courses" argument... come on really? That's like the old tired "if you don't like this country you can get out" argument. Of course I want to play those courses too. And if I have to pay I probably will. But that doesn't change the fact that all of this is escalating to a point where there will be no more free courses worth playing. I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to do what I can to save the game I love.

If evryone bought drinks, snack, lunch, discs, bags, etc from the pro shops then there wouldnt be a need to charge for the golf . . but you also have to understand that disc golfers are cheap and they will bring their own sodas and beers, granola bars, sandwiches and such the property owner will get nothing from most people. $5 to play all day is very reasonable considering the liability the property owner has taken on. The profit from the other stuff that does get sold helps to make improvements to the course.

 

[medicinalfunk]

this thread is giving me a headache

 

[Fishy]

I think you need to stop being such an elitist and realize you are not the king of the world.
BTW, love is free, but you probably feel the need to pay for that too.

So you had nothing real to say except to slander the owner of one of the best courses? real classy. Paulie at least has the experience of being the owner of a great P2P course. When you have a valid point, please feel free to post it. Until then you just come off as a bitter prick with no real argument. I have seen some very good points both ways on this thread and yours goes down along with the OP's "if you don't like the country, leave" statement.

 

[Paulie]

On pay to play on public land.

I play on "public land" which is tax payer land. It takes a good chunk of it to put in an 18 basket course and the baskets, tees and signs cost money. Maintenance costs money too.

I pay taxes. No need to list them all. They're the ones we all pay.

The courses I play are not restricted to DG only. They have walking paths on them. Should people pay a fee to walk the paths? They have playgrounds. Should people pay a fee to play on them? If people want to come to the park and just walk around in the woods, should they pay a fee for that? How about a dog walking fee? Or a fee for some kids tossing a football back and forth? Picnic fees? Bird watching fees? If not, why should DGers pay a fee for our activity when others are not paying fees for theirs?

If we did have to pay a fee to play DG in a public park, I'd expect that course to be DG only with no walking paths cutting through them. No nothing but DG. That and a bunch of fees to use public parks is not going to fly well with the tax paying public.

Making public park DG courses pay to play may turn into a good way to get rid of them. I suspect a good number of non DGers would vote to get rid of the courses so the park would be for everyone again and not just for DGers. And if they get rid of that usage fee, maybe they can get rid of the rest of them too. I mean, hey, there were no fees before DG. DG is what brought the fees. DG is gone. The fees should now be gone too.

 

[Paulie]

Then lets consider the value of DG courses.

When a piece of public land is a park and is being used by the public, that's an incentive to keep it public park land. If it's just a wooded lot that no one uses or cares much about, that's incentive to sell it to developers. Now sure, I shop at stores and live in a neighborhood. That doesn't mean every acre needs to be developed into that. DG courses help ensure we have nature areas in our towns.

Nature areas, like parks, are good. I wanted to find some well articulated points to help make my point and found a New Zealand web site that made them succinctly. From the Auckland Council;

Parks help the environment by:

providing healthy habitats for native plants and animals to live in
absorbing noise pollution and contaminants from the air and water
helping to sustain and enhance biodiversity (the diversity of life) within the city
ensuring that our natural environment is protected, enhanced and promoted

Parks help people by:

providing a space to exercise and play
enhancing our quality of life
giving people an opportunity to get out and see nature

Parks help the economy by:

attracting tourists
adding value to surrounding properties

So there ya go. Good for the environment, good for people and good for money.

 

[harr0140]

On pay to play on public land.

I play on "public land" which is tax payer land. It takes a good chunk of it to put in an 18 basket course and the baskets, tees and signs cost money. Maintenance costs money too.

I pay taxes. No need to list them all. They're the ones we all pay.

The courses I play are not restricted to DG only. They have walking paths on them. Should people pay a fee to walk the paths? They have playgrounds. Should people pay a fee to play on them? If people want to come to the park and just walk around in the woods, should they pay a fee for that? How about a dog walking fee? Or a fee for some kids tossing a football back and forth? Picnic fees? Bird watching fees? If not, why should DGers pay a fee for our activity when others are not paying fees for theirs?

If we did have to pay a fee to play DG in a public park, I'd expect that course to be DG only with no walking paths cutting through them. No nothing but DG. That and a bunch of fees to use public parks is not going to fly well with the tax paying public.

Making public park DG courses pay to play may turn into a good way to get rid of them. I suspect a good number of non DGers would vote to get rid of the courses so the park would be for everyone again and not just for DGers. And if they get rid of that usage fee, maybe they can get rid of the rest of them too. I mean, hey, there were no fees before DG. DG is what brought the fees. DG is gone. The fees should now be gone too.

ahhh nevermind!

 

[Fishy]

I understand and agree with some of those points, in certain situations.. Parks are good, they do promote people to get out and enjoy nature. I have also seen what happens when public parks become pay per use. Example is the Metro Park system in the Detroit area with some very cool DG courses. They are tax payer funded, but people gladly pay the yearly pass to get on the park, plus the yearly pass to play DG, it has paid for new courses and has kept the general riff raff out of the park system. It's hard to argue that all courses should be free as they do cost money for upkeep, and a $5 nominal fee for a days worth of entertainment is nothing. There will always be free courses, but if you want higher quality and a better experience you have to be willing to pay. I enjoy meeting people on courses, but I also enjoy playing with people that are out there to play, not burn down and consume copious amounts of alcohol.

 

[Danger]

Disneyland should be free, too. And apple products. And that 24 hour fitness they built on what used to be public land.

Disc Golf is free in some places and p2p in others. We should be happy to have such variety in our sport. Bolfers ALWAYS pay. Even to practice. Sheesh!

 

[Paulie]

At this park, or any pay to play course in a public park, are the DG courses only for DG?

I can see how more money equals more better courses. Paying a fee to go to a park that my taxes paid for and then paying another fee to play in that park feels like a fleecing though. How many times am I supposed to pay for the same thing? And come on, we all know the government doesn't spend the money it gets like it's supposed to.

What about tax payers who don't play DG? Well, I suppose a good number of them aren't using the park anyway. The park still benefits the community though. And just like no one is forcing anyone to play a pay course or play DG at all, no one is forcing them not to either.

Private courses are private courses. If someone puts up a nice private course, they have every right to charge for it. I'd even pay it now and then if it were worth it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Parks departments all over charge for more organized or expensive facilities installed in "free" parks when they can monitor it. Ballfields, tennis courts, hockey rinks, dog exercise areas and shelters can have fees and there are charges for permits granting exclusive use of the course for DG tournaments even though the course may be free for daily play.

 

[Mattallica]

Disneyland should be free, too. And apple products. And that 24 hour fitness they built on what used to be public land.

Disc Golf is free in some places and p2p in others. We should be happy to have such variety in our sport. Bolfers ALWAYS pay. Even to practice. Sheesh!

well put

 

[jeffmonty]

I'm curious, how many out there know of or have p2p courses in public parks? I don't recall ever seeing this, outside of courses in state parks that charge a use fee for day use. I have seen a few "suggested donation" boxes but thats about it.

 

[chrishank]

I don't mind pay to play as long as the course is worth it and resonable price. The price should never ever go over 10 dollars tho unless they give you something like a mini disc or some kind of disc related thing.

 

[dickparker]

I'm curious, how many out there know of or have p2p courses in public parks? I don't recall ever seeing this, outside of courses in state parks that charge a use fee for day use. I have seen a few "suggested donation" boxes but thats about it.

Smithville, MO has recently installed a 3 course dg complex in a public park that is pay to park. $5 a day or $40 per year. Though they only charge at the gate 4-5 months out of the year. So if you don't like to pay to play then you can wait till fall, winter, or spring to play.

I personally don't mind the idea of pay to play as long as they use some of the funds to take care of the course. Which they do. They are mowing 89 acres once a week. Pretty awesome.

 

[therealbigtrav]

I'm curious, how many out there know of or have p2p courses in public parks? I don't recall ever seeing this, outside of courses in state parks that charge a use fee for day use. I have seen a few "suggested donation" boxes but thats about it.

Over the past 7 years I've been a member at two different county park courses that charge (Vallarta/Standing Rocks). I think Vallarta used to be $45 for the season, and Standing Rocks was $25. Standing Rocks recently expanded, and Vallarta has plans to expand soon. I'm assuming this is brought on by the added revenue from the pay to play funds. Also, both courses are kept up, and extremely clean. People tend to care more about courses that they pay to play on (not that it should make a difference), but there is pride of membership. I am a fan of the pay to play courses. It keeps me from playing a round behind a group of eight, or the people who are there to party. I have read almost this entire thread, and am not really sure why there is any argument. People who want free courses will always have free course options. That will never go away. In the meantime, I'll donate to local pay to play and watch it improve, while you sit on the tee box at Yulga for twenty minutes a hole on a Saturday afternoon. Hey, at least it's free!

 

[jpass21]

Disneyland should be free, too. And apple products. And that 24 hour fitness they built on what used to be public land.

Disc Golf is free in some places and p2p in others. We should be happy to have such variety in our sport. Bolfers ALWAYS pay. Even to practice. Sheesh!

I see your point, however, there is one problem. I am arguing that over time, disc golf will not be free anywhere. If the current trend continues, all disc golf courses could begin to charge in the near future. If golfers are willing to pay, why wouldn't they. Once that becomes the standard, the sport changes greatly. It becomes more about having exactly the right discs and getting a spot than actually playing the game. I truly believe that a snobby pay to play attitude will inevitably lead to the sport becoming more exclusive and generally less fun. Sure we'll have well maintained courses, but not everyone will be able to play. I imagine there were some free to play public ball golf courses back in the day. How about now?

 

[jpass21]

Have you considered that those things aren't fine with everyone, therefore that conundrum creates a marketplace for courses for players who are willing to pay not to deal with them, all while leaving more free course space for you?
Absolutely. The whole courses are free thing is a quirk of the sport being so obscure that there wasn't enough of a market to charge for it. The times they are a changing.
Hmm, that sounds more like a personal choice that one doesn't have to make. Might as well suggest that we let you have free gas getting to all those courses while you're at it.
No it isn't because if you don't want to pay, you're still welcome in about 86% of our "country", and while pay courses are likely to become more prevalent, I doubt they're ever going to replace most of the existing free ones.
Once you start paying and see the other side of the coin, I think you'll get over that.
Sure as hell sounds like it.
My advice would be to quit acting like an entitlement oriented douche who thinks that free disc golf is a birthright.

Well well, we are a little grumpy aren't we. You clearly must be a conservative spouting your nonsense about entitlements. You know what I love about people like you who pick apart every sentence of other people's arguments? Nothing. If I'm an "entitlement oriented douche," you are certainly a pay-to-play elitist snob. What is wrong with wanting to play all the best courses in the country without paying for them? Do you not want that?

I disagree with the general principle that free courses cannot be well maintained or generally as good as pay courses. I see no reason that a course couldn't make money in other ways such as hosting tournaments, selling concessions, etc. If you don't like it, get the hell off my thread