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PDGA Board of Director Elections

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Nova, not all Texans think like that. In fact some of us were actually a part of the governing body that had advised the Legislature to stay out of it -- we had it handled. But alas, politicians are politicians.
(said with levity and a smile)

I didn't say Texans forced Mack Beggs into a stupid situation. I said Texas forced Mack Beggs into a stupid situation. The former is a diverse group of people, the latter is the personification of the state government.

I get that people live behind enemy lines. I mean, holy ****, I live in Missouri. Ugh. ;)
 
They are the ratings tracks of Ella Hansen, Holyn Handley, and Natalie Ryan with Natalie's being the longer one.
Over on Reddit there's a stupid conspiracy theory floating around that Ella is transgender. It's on the "birds aren't real"-tier of stupid, but there it is.

Whee, witch hunts are fun. :doh:
 
I have mixed feelings on the overall issue.

But it seems to me that the age-protected divisions are, in part, social as well as athletic -- both for the kids, and us geezers. To what degree is the same true about gender-protected divisions?
The thing is that age and gender divisions are not unique to disc golf. These separations are how activities are presented across the board. You just have big fish/little fish ways of doing it.

If you are a big fish like baseball you can have multiple organizations and multiple governing bodies organizing big league baseball, minor league baseball, amateur baseball, college baseball, high school baseball, little league baseball, senior league baseball...there can literally be 100 different organizations organizing play all over the place. There is no umbrella God/King all-things-baseball organization. It's too huge for that. So you don't see a baseball tournament with youth divisions and amateur divisions and senior divisions all playing on the same weekend in the same place; the teams don't even fall under the same governing bodies.

Disc golf has the little fish problem of not having enough players for events to stand alone, so instead of having a PDGA and a WPDGA and a Senior PDGA and an Amateur DGA and a junior DGA all doing their own thing, we have one umbrella God/King all-things-disc-golf governing body. We have "One size fits all" events and cram everyone together on the same days on the same courses. The upside is that's how you create the "disc golf family"; we overlap. The downside is our events have to have a lot of divisions.

If disc golf keeps growing, there will be a pro/amateur split at some point and our BoD won't have anything to do with pro events.
 
Over on Reddit there's a stupid conspiracy theory floating around that Ella is transgender. It's on the "birds aren't real"-tier of stupid, but there it is.

Whee, witch hunts are fun. :doh:

Un-nice. I manage to keep myself to FB and here for my social media exploits- pretty sure I would get more frustrated and depressed with the state of humanity if I expanded and I already stay pretty frustrated and depressed with it.
 
I'm going to attempt to respond to the "Does a transgender player retain an advantage post-transition? question.

First off - a preface: I'm borrowing liberally from things Laura Natagaal has said in defense of trans players. I wish I could find the posts in the thread regarding her win at AM Worlds where she explained all of this, I'm going to be paraphrasing things she has already said and much of what I'm saying here are her words, and not mine. And I want to stress that - it is important to listen to the experiences of those who this affects. So, if any of this sound familiar, that's because it is - Laura and her peers have said this before.

That being said -

The problem seems to be that this question isn't being asked in good faith. It's being used as a weapon. A gotcha. As in, this is a zero sum game. If any advantage can be detected, a disqualification must occur. So if a transgender players says an advantage may exist, the immediate response is how dare you play against women without that advantage? You are the villain here, not me.

The question isn't being asked "if an advantage exists, is it significant enough to completely unbalance the playing field, or is that advantage comparable to the field?"

And therein lies the problem. Competition isn't fair. Bodies are not identical, regardless of background or upbringing. Nature doesn't make cookie-cutter people. Everyone is different. If you haven't seen the studies that examine why Michael Phelps is a superior swimmer to pretty much every other Olympic man in the pool, you ought to. He has unique body form that provides him significant advantages to other swimmers, advantages that had nothing to do with time training or the way he trained.

Whenever this question is asked, it is asked with the supposition that the playing field is balanced and level, and a transgender player will unbalance it. But the playing field isn't level and balanced, and it never has been. Some competitors simply have physical advantages that no amount of training is going to overcome, and if those competitors with the advantages master technique and form, they are very difficult to beat.

This is an issue because no one bats an eye at this in men's sports. Ever. Everyone just operates from the assumption that men are men and men can play against men. But some men naturally produce more testosterone than others. They have advantages. Some are like Michael Phelps - also with advantages. No one cares.

It's when it's a woman that suddenly everyone gets testy about it. A cis woman could be a woman in every way detractors are going to measure it, but if her body somehow produces testosterone at a level people find offensive, suddenly she can longer compete unless she takes medication to eliminate the advantage her own normal body chemistry gives her. Again, this is something that isn't looked at all in men's sports, only in women's.

We have a peculiar definition of what constitutes fairness in women's sports and it is largely based on how feminine in appearance a woman is or is not. If you look like Gal Gadot, you can do whatever you want and no one is going to question it. If you are too androgynous in body type, fashion, or both, you'll be the subject of scrutiny until you conform.

You only have to look at someone like Amelie Mauresmo (French tennis player) to see this. There were Facebook groups whose entire purpose was to drive home their assumption that Mauresmo was actually male. She wasn't a transgender player - just a woman whose facial structure and sexual orientation caused everyone to question whom she was.

Or, in a more local example, the number of people who continue to believe Ella Hansen is a trans player.

If Natalie Ryan looked like say, Kat Mertsch or Macie Velediez, and wasn't public about her past, it's quite possible there would be no controversy at all.

So, to bring this full circle back to the beginning - do trans players have an advantage. A player might. Do all trans players? No. And if the player has an advantage, is that sufficient to upend the playing field? But that isn't the question being asked, because that isn't how we view transgender women.

As I said in a previous post, we don't look at transgender women in the same way we look at other women. We think of them as retaining all of advantages of someone who never underwent hormonal replacement or surgery, wearing the clothing a gender that isn't theirs, asking for unreasonable concessions because we don't want to do the necessary and messy work in our heads to undo our preconceptions and prejudices.

But this question is always asked as a gotcha with a zero sum goal in mind.
 
I didn't say Texans forced Mack Beggs into a stupid situation. I said Texas forced Mack Beggs into a stupid situation. The former is a diverse group of people, the latter is the personification of the state government.

I get that people live behind enemy lines. I mean, holy ****, I live in Missouri. Ugh. ;)
I was playing a Chicago diss track the other day (my wife is from the Chicago area) and forgot the song ended with the line "You'll only ever be in Illinois...And that'll always be way too close to Missouri". :| I dissed myself. :(
 
They are the ratings tracks of Ella Hansen, Holyn Handley, and Natalie Ryan with Natalie's being the longer one. I just looked for women with similar ratings and PDGA numbers not too far apart to see if/how they differed. They really differ very little and I thought it may be useful for folks to see that. If anything Natalie's rise was a wee bit slower. I apologize to all of them for using them as examples as Natalie is the only one of the 3 I actually know. FWIW Natalie works harder at disc golf then any player I have ever seen first hand.

Are you claiming that male and female players who are similarly rated improve at different rates relative to each other? Or that similarly rated women regardless of sex improve at similar rates relative to each other?

I would disagree that one's sex is a determinate for one's rate of improvement if that's what you're claiming.

For example, Natalie's rate of improvement and the females you provided above look similar to some other male players who joined at the same time she did.
https://www.pdga.com/player/114642/history
https://www.pdga.com/player/114609/history
 
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I was merely prodding along the conversation. A lot of the comments I made were just repeating things I've heard lately from people who are passionate about this topic.

I myself really have no idea how I feel about it at all? I truly don't. I don't want anyone excluded and I don't want anyone feeling taken advantage of. I know that disc golf and our board will not be the one to make the final decision on this issue either. It will most likely come through courts and laws which is scary as hell.

My only real thought on it are, if you identify as a male or female and want to play in that division, then play in that division. You are 100% fully allowed to do so. But also you have to understand that it upsets people who have daughters and others who this may impact.

Myself, I could care less as the issue really doesn't affect me one bit whatsoever.

Discussion boards are a good place for discussion.
 
I'm not a member of the United States Congress but I get to vote in congressional elections.

What? Either you are a member to the United States and are allowed to vote or United States congress people.......or you are a member of the United States and have authorized representation to vote on United States the following:

Make laws
Declare war
Raise and provide public money and oversee its proper expenditure
Impeach and try federal officers
Approve presidential appointments
Approve treaties negotiated by the executive branch
Oversight and investigations

i honestly don't really understand your point or issue, in terms of the PDGA. Why would there be any interest, on behalf of the paying membership, to allow non paying parties to have a say?
 
Are you claiming that male and female players who are similarly rated improve at different rates relative to each other? Or that similarly rated women regardless of sex improve at similar rates relative to each other?

I would disagree that one's sex is a determinate for one's rate of improvement if that's what you're claiming.

For example, Natalie's rate of improvement and the females you provided above look similar to some other male players who joined at the same time she did.
https://www.pdga.com/player/114642/history
https://www.pdga.com/player/114609/history

I was not claiming anything one way or another. I just looked at the 3 lady's similar ratings and PDGA numbers and was curious. Turned out they all pretty much started at the same spot and have pretty much arrived at the same place following a very similar path. Then I decided to learn how to make a graph in Excel. I certainly think it is an indicator that Natalie is not advantaged beyond Ella and Holyn, particularly when I factor in my first hand knowledge of how much effort she has put into getting where she is.
 
I was not claiming anything one way or another. I just looked at the 3 lady's similar ratings and PDGA numbers and was curious. Turned out they all pretty much started at the same spot and have pretty much arrived at the same place following a very similar path. Then I decided to learn how to make a graph in Excel. I certainly think it is an indicator that Natalie is not advantaged beyond Ella and Holyn, particularly when I factor in my first hand knowledge of how much effort she has put into getting where she is.

I agree. Ratings are an accurate way of measuring peoples skill as expressed via ratings.
 
To simplify the debate, there are two options here. You can leave things the way they are, or you can effectely ban women who are transgender from playing organized disc golf. Those are the options we have. We don't really have to debate "other solutions"; there are no other solutions. The things we seem to think are solutions will just drive women who are transgender away from the sport. I would think it would also send a message that will make the sport seem unfriendly to men who are transgender and they would be less likely to participate. It probably sends a bad message to the entire LGBTQIA community, so it would hurt promoting disc golf to more than just the transgender community.


In my experience, the people who are the most vocal about banning trans women from FPO, ultimately have the end goal of banning them completely from competition.

They just won't come out and say exactly that just yet.

I would be willing to bet many of them have similar feelings towards other LGBTQIA folks.
 
A point that is worth making in regards to sex and gender is how imprecisely we tend to be in our language in general and it complicates these discussions. We tend to use words that refer to sex and gender as if they are interchangeable, however there are underlying concepts which are not. Sex and gender are actually distinct and not the same, they just tend to be treated as if they are interchangeable

Sex is determined by our sex chromosomes. These sex chromosomes then are expressed and tend to lead to a number of secondary sex characteristics, however, they are not solely determinative. Male and female are terms that refer to the specific XX and XY chromosome combinations. As I've already mentioned, these are not the only combination of sex chromosomes which are possible, we just don't have commonly used names for them.

Gender is a reference to an internal sense of who we are. This is also determined biologically, as it is simply a result of specific factors that affect our brain development. Most commonly female sex chromosomes lead to identifying ones gender as a woman. Man and woman are terms which reference gender, not sex.

Sex and gender are strongly correlated, and their distribution is statistically dominated by the two binary clusters. This is not the same thing as there being only two sexes which then precisely determine only two genders.

These two concepts are linked to, but different from, a third concept, that of gender roles. Gender roles are a social construct that attempt to dictate the behaviors of individuals based on their secondary sexual characteristics. This is what should be meant by the phrase "gender is a social construct". It is really a reference to gender roles. This is where ideas that have no basis in reality like "men are stoic and women are emotional" come from. Indeed, if we look in the past, we can see the precise opposite idea be accepted, that men were in the sway of their emotions and that woman were the dispassionate ones.

This has little to do with the issue currently at hand, except that it may help some fully accept that being transgender is not a choice, but intrinsic in nature. And it also may help correct some misinderstandings that result from imprecise language.
 
As much as I would love to see Am trinket bonanzas go away I don't advocate for that quite yet. What I do advocate is not requiring events to be one in order to be considered of a high level. Some value needs to be placed on organized competition in and of itself.

I don't think Glass Blown (DDO) would be just another event either way. I see players as more attracted by the huge fields, commitment from the town of Emporia, and convention atmosphere than by points.



The point about valuing organized competition itself, is what really turns me away from current models of organized disc golf.

I grew up playing in organized leagues/tournaments/competitions for other sports and you didn't get a player's pack valued at the same price as your entry fee.

You got a t-shirt and the chance to play for a trophy, maybe some cash, but most importantly the feeling of winning.

If we can move closer to that, it would really weed out those player's who have huge egos and just want a bunch of crap that they can resell on FB.

Tournaments probably wouldn't sell out in 30 seconds either then.

Not sure our current structure can support that though.
 
I have mixed feelings on the overall issue.

But it seems to me that the age-protected divisions are, in part, social as well as athletic -- both for the kids, and us geezers. To what degree is the same true about gender-protected divisions?

It is hard to answer this question without having the parameters of the question defined. In what way are the age protected divisions social?
 
It is hard to answer this question without having the parameters of the question defined. In what way are the age protected divisions social?

With my rating and age, I can play almost any M division.

But more specifically, years ago I qualified for Advanced or Masters (MA40). Almost all the Am men over 40 were playing in one of the Masters divisions -- not Advanced or Intermediate or Rec, where their ratings would place them.

Why have the Masters divisions? We could have all chosen a ratings-based division in which we could compete.

But we enjoyed the company of the older crowd ("playing with adults", I believe was the idea). That's a social reason for a protected division. It's not that we weren't competing for wins, but that's only part of it.

You might say the same of juniors. I know some juniors who can compete with men Novice or Rec or even higher, and sometimes they do. But when they can, they play juniors. Why? I think they're more comfortable playing with other kids.

It's not a perfect analogy for gender-protected divisions, but it's an observation that there may be other reasons than pure competition, for grouping players.
 
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