PDGA NT: 2019 Dynamic Discs Glass Blown Open 24-Apr to 27-Apr-2019

[SD86]

Minor correction, but yes she can call herself for a foot fault. .

Did they change the rule? I had thought that self-calls could be made, also, but when Wysocki lost his balance on a putt during Worlds at Ft. Gordon, he didn't self-call. I was told then (and in strong terms) that one could not self-call a foot fault, but could confirm on oneself if another player made the call. Wysocki was asking the others on his card (one of whom was JohnE McCray) why they didn't call the foot fault, and the story was that they said it was just a first-offense warning and he'd make the putt anyway.

So, serious request for clarification: Per the current rules, can a player self-call a foot fault, or not?

 

[JC17393]

Did they change the rule? I had thought that self-calls could be made, also, but when Wysocki lost his balance on a putt during Worlds at Ft. Gordon, he didn't self-call. I was told then (and in strong terms) that one could not self-call a foot fault, but could confirm on oneself if another player made the call. Wysocki was asking the others on his card (one of whom was JohnE McCray) why they didn't call the foot fault, and the story was that they said it was just a first-offense warning and he'd make the putt anyway.

So, serious request for clarification: Per the current rules, can a player self-call a foot fault, or not?

Worlds at Ft Gordon/IDGC was 2017. New rule book in 2018 with a change to the rule about foot faults. Old rule was warning on the first offense, penalty on subsequent offenses, and no self-calls. New rule is no warnings, penalty assessed on the first called (and seconded) offense, and anyone in the group including the thrower can call or second. The new rule also is that there is no re-throw involved. So you take the penalty and the result of the throw.

801.02 C Enforcement

802.07 Stance

 

[netposer]

I have watched most of the filmed rounds the last few years. . and the number of footfalls called is extreamly few

So rare that i dont think players pays that much attention to it. . .and i think the FPO is worse, you see several clear footfoults every round but i NEVER gets called

I personally think that run-up should only be allowed of the tee. . fairway shots should be stand still

Yeah, stand-still shots on long holes will be so exciting... said no one ever.

 

[Jolt]

Yeah, stand-still shots on long holes will be so exciting... said no one ever.

Yes, i can see that. . . but we would not need as many +1000fot holes

And the long throwers reaching the 1000fot holes on two, is that good for the sport and cource designers?

I think the tee shot should be the long one. . today you can throw just as far from the fairway

 

[BlueMonk]

I saw Paige's Facebook post this morning and I'm impressed. It was well-written and doesn't come across as spiteful. It was like there was something important that needed to be said that nobody really wanted to say, so she said it. It wasn't an attack on Cat, it was calling out an accountability issue that exists in the sport.

There is something about the players policing each other that seems really awkward to me. As someone who never played much golf, this aspect of the game is hard for me to really get. In all the major sports, there are officials. I'm just a rec player who plays casual rounds with friends, so this stuff never comes up in our games. I might take a friendly jab at someone if I think he foot-faulted badly, but that's not the same thing as being in real competition and having to worry about ratcheting up the tension in the group by issuing a questionable warning. Maybe it's that I'm always in a very collegial environment that I hate the idea of that kind of stuff creeping into disc golf. But realistically, it's going to have to if rules are going to be enforced.

How does it work in PGA golf? I watch a little, but I can't remember any big controversies in big tournaments about how the card decided something questionable. Do the players just do a better job of self-calling so it never comes down to this type of thing? Or does it happen in golf, too?

 

[Horsman]

I have watched most of the filmed rounds the last few years. . and the number of footfalls called is extreamly few

So rare that i dont think players pays that much attention to it. . .and i think the FPO is worse, you see several clear footfoults every round but i NEVER gets called

I personally think that run-up should only be allowed of the tee. . fairway shots should be stand still

Id stop playing all courses that have legit par 4's and 5's. Standstills on the fairway would ruin the game.

 

[Horsman]

I saw Paige's Facebook post this morning and I'm impressed. It was well-written and doesn't come across as spiteful. It was like there was something important that needed to be said that nobody really wanted to say, so she said it. It wasn't an attack on Cat, it was calling out an accountability issue that exists in the sport.

There is something about the players policing each other that seems really awkward to me. As someone who never played much golf, this aspect of the game is hard for me to really get. In all the major sports, there are officials. I'm just a rec player who plays casual rounds with friends, so this stuff never comes up in our games. I might take a friendly jab at someone if I think he foot-faulted badly, but that's not the same thing as being in real competition and having to worry about ratcheting up the tension in the group by issuing a questionable warning. Maybe it's that I'm always in a very collegial environment that I hate the idea of that kind of stuff creeping into disc golf. But realistically, it's going to have to if rules are going to be enforced.

How does it work in PGA golf? I watch a little, but I can't remember any big controversies in big tournaments about how the card decided something questionable. Do the players just do a better job of self-calling so it never comes down to this type of thing? Or does it happen in golf, too?

I think maybe that each group has an official with them. If so then thats not really realistic for disc golf.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Id stop playing all courses that have legit par 4's and 5's. Standstills on the fairway would ruin the game.

Wouldn't ruin the game, just make it less fun and increase the number of foot fault arguments.

 

[dorseymatt]

I'm not sure there is a great solution to this issue. In the heat of a competitive tournament, it's very easy, from your own perspective, to think you are correct in what you saw, but to actually be wrong. So, I sympathize with Cat, if that is what happened (I haven't seen the footage yet), as well as her competitors. It's a situation I wish the players didn't have to be in, making these calls.
I guess, in a perfect world, if you're running a tournament with holes that have OB or potential situations with weird rule interpretations, etc, those particular holes could have spotters who are given authority to make calls.

 

[Jolt]

I saw Paige's Facebook post this morning and I'm impressed. It was well-written and doesn't come across as spiteful. It was like there was something important that needed to be said that nobody really wanted to say, so she said it. It wasn't an attack on Cat, it was calling out an accountability issue that exists in the sport.

There is something about the players policing each other that seems really awkward to me. As someone who never played much golf, this aspect of the game is hard for me to really get. In all the major sports, there are officials. I'm just a rec player who plays casual rounds with friends, so this stuff never comes up in our games. I might take a friendly jab at someone if I think he foot-faulted badly, but that's not the same thing as being in real competition and having to worry about ratcheting up the tension in the group by issuing a questionable warning. Maybe it's that I'm always in a very collegial environment that I hate the idea of that kind of stuff creeping into disc golf. But realistically, it's going to have to if rules are going to be enforced.

How does it work in PGA golf? I watch a little, but I can't remember any big controversies in big tournaments about how the card decided something questionable. Do the players just do a better job of self-calling so it never comes down to this type of thing? Or does it happen in golf, too?

Totally agree with this..you don't want to be "that guy/girl" that call faults on others. . The same players play week after week and if you call a fault on someone it WILL be remembered

 

[biscoe]

I'm not sure there is a great solution to this issue. In the heat of a competitive tournament, it's very easy, from your own perspective, to think you are correct in what you saw, but to actually be wrong. So, I sympathize with Cat, if that is what happened (I haven't seen the footage yet), as well as her competitors. It's a situation I wish the players didn't have to be in, making these calls.
I guess, in a perfect world, if you're running a tournament with holes that have OB or potential situations with weird rule interpretations, etc, those particular holes could have spotters who are given authority to make calls.

I wonder if the bolded is actually possible per the pdga...

 

[Cgkdisc]

TD is allowed to deputize selected spotters, who are certified officials, as Tournament Officials to make official line and other calls on a hole.

 

[paulw]

The "where the disc went out" discussion during a tournament is always an interesting look into behavior. Invariably there are differences of opinion on any disc that goes out. I've thrown a disc directly out-of-bounds off the tee and never come back when the group tried to tell me I came in half-way of the disc's flight .. it was on a hyzer the entire time. I stood on the tee with the other three players and showed them how this was impossible and they eventually agreed. Later, after the round, one of the players explained that's how they always played that at that particular course since the re-tee was so harsh a penalty on a basically wide-open basket.

Making or missing a mando is the same type of discussion. Played a tournament where a player shanked a drive wrong-side of a mando, the group had a collective groan but the player proceeded to his disc and marked it was preparing to play. We then said he missed the mando but he believed he made it. The rest of us told him there wasn't any way he made it, especially based on being in a physically impossible area unless he missed the mandatory.

Eventually he played out from both lies using provisionals, and scored the same (mercifully) from each -- but to this day he contends he made the mando and the other 2 guys and myself always shake our heads in disbelief. It wasn't close. He missed by 50+'. At the time I just thought he was cheating, looking back the guy believed he was right.

I play very few tournaments anymore but I've started declaring when a mando is missed immediately and where the disc went out immediately if out-of-bounds is involved -- makes the walk down the fairway and spotting the lie much less intense usually. "You went out in line with the 5th stake -- right?" or something along those lines just to get ahead of any argument. Works well most of the time.

Disclaimer: If the player goes ape-**** disagreeing about what I think I saw, I just relent and let him and the group hash it out. I'm not in any high-stakes games and I just don't care that much.

 

[SD86]

How does it work in PGA golf? I watch a little, but I can't remember any big controversies in big tournaments about how the card decided something questionable. Do the players just do a better job of self-calling so it never comes down to this type of thing? Or does it happen in golf, too?

It's generally an honor system in ball golf. The other players on the card are considered to be there to 'protect the field' in a rules issue. Virtually all calls are self-calls but ball golf players generally will ask for a Rules Official when there is a question (I have been a marshal at LPGA events, and one job was to go get an Official if a player asked for one.), and that Official can and will make a ruling. Usually the other players don't make a call upon a player.

Remember that spectator crowds are much larger at ball golf events, which puts some integrity pressure on the players, as well. It used to be that people called in if they saw an infraction on TV, and the Officials would look at it and rule on it. That's been done away with now; they no longer act on phone calls from spectators.

They (the officials) can and DO look at TV coverage to aid in their rulings, and that may be something DG could look into. When Nikko called Wysocki's foot fault and McCrae just stood there and refused to confirm it, Nikko wanted to go to the video to confirm it, but he was not allowed to.

 

[JC17393]

How does it work in PGA golf? I watch a little, but I can't remember any big controversies in big tournaments about how the card decided something questionable. Do the players just do a better job of self-calling so it never comes down to this type of thing? Or does it happen in golf, too?

In PGA golf, the players self-officiate same as we do. However, there are also rules/tournament officials scattered around the course (maybe one per hole, maybe one per two holes) who can be and usually are consulted on any questions or rulings.

There tend to be a lot more self-calls in ball golf because many violations are things that could be so subtle that only the player knows they happened (at least without slo mo replay and super zoomed in camera shots). Like if the ball moves unintentionally while the player is addressing it. That's a violation that another player 15 feet away might not be able to see but the player himself is right there.

They also don't have quite as many calls that require judgement like we do. I don't believe there are any calls to be made based on the flight of the ball, only on where it ends up. So there's really no equivalent to the OB call/mark from round 2. Were it a ball golf hole, just that fact that she ended up in the hazard/OB would have dictated where she went from there. There'd be no need for the group to decide where her lie should have been, and no way for her to argue for a different one.

 

[SD86]

TD is allowed to deputize selected spotters, who are certified officials, as Tournament Officials to make official line and other calls on a hole.

True, but my understanding is that those deputized spotters are discouraged from making calls, or only speaking if spoken to (i.e. asked by the players for help). I'd encourage these deputized spotters be given more authority to call OB as well as to mark the spot where a disc went OB.

This is also a good reason to have a little OB as possible. IOW, if there's a lot of OB that is not water, then maybe there's a problem with the course and its design...

 

[Cgkdisc]

True, but my understanding is that those deputized spotters are discouraged from making calls, or only speaking if spoken to (i.e. asked by the players for help). I'd encourage these deputized spotters be given more authority to call OB as well as to mark the spot where a disc went OB.

This is also a good reason to have a little OB as possible. IOW, if there's a lot of OB that is not water, then maybe there's a problem with the course and its design...

Deputized Tournament Official spotters are supposed to mark where a throw goes OB and ideally they would be located on holes where the usual landing areas are blind from the tee. You're thinking of PDGA Marshals or roaming officials who typically do not step in unless asked.

 

[JC17393]

True, but my understanding is that those deputized spotters are discouraged from making calls, or only speaking if spoken to (i.e. asked by the players for help). I'd encourage these deputized spotters be given more authority to call OB as well as to mark the spot where a disc went OB.

This is also a good reason to have a little OB as possible. IOW, if there's a lot of OB that is not water, then maybe there's a problem with the course and its design...

Tournament officials (not necessarily spotters) are discouraged from actively making calls because they usually are roaming around and therefore when they are present to make a call is random. It is considered unfair for one group to be scrutinized or even overridden by an official that was not present to make similar calls on other groups (such as the case of determining a lie after OB).

A spotter is a different thing. If they are "deputized" as tournament officials, I would think they carry some authority when it comes to making a call on something like where a disc was last in-bounds. If they're assigned to a specific hole all day, that means that they're there to make the same type of call on every group in the tournament, which mitigates the whole fairness argument.

The issue is that it is extremely rare that a spotter is given any authority as a tournament official. They're usually volunteers without qualifications other than they have eyes and can watch throws and aid players in locating their discs. So if they offer help (say marking last in-bounds with a flag), the group is free to ignore them if they choose. I would expect that if a spotter was granted authority, it would be noted by the TD in the player meeting just to make it clear to the groups.

 

[Steve West]

There are some things that can be done with course design to mitigate these situations.

Don't have OB lines that are parallel to the flight path. "Bowling alley" style straight edges to a linear fairway are bad enough, but an OB line that actually curves like a hyzer? Ugh.

If you do have OB lines which make the call difficult, take the pressure off the players by providing a DZ.

Or, have the players mark the lie near where the disc landed under:

806.02 D. 5. A lie designated by a marker disc placed on the playing surface at any point on a one-meter line that is perpendicular to the out-of-bounds line at the point that is nearest to the position of the disc.

 

[rocthecourse]

If I was the course designer I would move the basket on 16 to the center of the island. Having the basket in the center would reward more of the shots that land on the island.