Putter Drives - Form Tips -

[CwAlbino]

I'll see you at collegiate nationals and I'm gunning for the distance title big time.

I had I think third in distance last time with a teebird. Everyone thought I threw an aviar. I was discing down hardcore last year, should have faster drivers for the D competition this year.

Hopefully they don't make us tee off on that stupid sand teepad this time. (pad made of sand, not sand on the pad)

e/

I'll see you at collegiate nationals and I'm gunning for the distance title big time. From my talks with NCDGC this is a legit contest this year. Chance to officially break the collegiate record. Even have to qualify on Thursday

Oh?? Saweeeeeeeet.

 

[zj1002]

Yeah I don't normally throw faster than an Orion lf for D. But I got me some pro destroyers that have been going 525-600. Should be fun

 

[CwAlbino]

Yeah I don't normally throw faster than an Orion lf for D. But I got me some pro destroyers that have been going 525-600. Should be fun

I don't think last years winner reached 500'(maybe right at it). Should have a chance at it for sure. It was funny to watch Garret Gurthrie(sp?) after everyone else just bomb them 100ft past the leader of the collegiate distance.

 

[dodgeball]

The part of his form that he's giving tips on, which also happens to be, by far the most important part, is actually almost perfect. I'd recommend listening to what he's saying rather than focusing on the rest of the stuff that doesn't matter.

The video starts with a 7 second pause at the part of the throw he's talking about. He wrote a couple paragraphs about some important things that happen during the most important part of the throw. Complaining about his reach back or the small amount of OAT he's applying is totally missing the point and one of the main reasons some people have a difficult time learning to throw far.

I'd guess that if he wanted to, he could make the rest of his form look prettier and get similar D. Then people would watch his videos and talk about how awesome his reach back is or how much shoulder or hip rotation he's getting and then go out and practice that stuff, still totally missing the point that what he wrote about is much more important. IMO, this video is much more effective. We already have videos of pros who have prettier form.

I would make the point that he throws far IN SPITE of a lot of his--let's call them unique--form attributes. And I'd also say that he can get away with these form issues because he has the strength to compensate and maybe just good timing. But things like good footwork, a good reachback (straight and level), not throwing with excessive oat DO matter! I get what u mean about him being good at the hit and I'd agree. He also does a really good job of getting and keeping his weight forward. But I just don't get when u say all the other things don't matter! For most players, I think they need to have a solid technique throughout the shot so they can CONSISTENTLY get into the proper position for a good hit. Most players who have played for any amount of time probably knows what a good hit feels like, but the real issue is in producing it on any consistent basis.

 

[garublador]

He might be trying to get people to close their stance up more so that their back is turned on reachback and pull, but telling someone to aim way left of the target is not the way to do it.

I think he was trying to tell people to close their stance, but not to get their back turned more. It's to show that if your stance is open on a hyzer that you won't be able to time your shoulders and elbow correctly. Your shoulders will open too soon and you won't get elbow and wrist extension. It's exaggerated because of the line but that makes it easier to see. Once it's explained it's easy to deduce that you don't need to do it that much on every throw as JoshEpoo pointed out earlier this week.

The reason some of use are worshiping his throw is both that he "got it" right away and that he's so aware of what he's doing and why he's doing in the important part of the throw. There are lots of guys who "get it" right away that don't understand the mechanics behind it. Those that do understand the mechanics are usually the ones that studied them so much because they didn't get it on their own.

 

[garublador]

Now we're getting somewhere!

I would make the point that he throws far IN SPITE of a lot of his--let's call them unique--form attributes. And I'd also say that he can get away with these form issues because he has the strength to compensate and maybe just good timing.

That's exactly the point! He's able to do it in spite of that other stuff because the important part of his throw, which is what he's trying to demonstrate, is correct. He doesn't throw far in spite of that stuff because he's magic, it's because he's focusing on the important part of the throw.

But things like good footwork, a good reachback (straight and level), not throwing with excessive oat DO matter!

They may matter, but it's combined all of that stuff is like 20% of the importance. Why focus on the 20% when you can spend that time getting the 80% part right?

I get what u mean about him being good at the hit and I'd agree. He also does a really good job of getting and keeping his weight forward. But I just don't get when u say all the other things don't matter!

If they mattered as much as you're saying he wouldn't be throwing far.

For most players, I think they need to have a solid technique throughout the shot so they can CONSISTENTLY get into the proper position for a good hit.

Not if you build your throw from the hit back you won't. If you start with the important part he's demonstrating and get that right, then add the rest of the throw then you won't even need to worry about that stuff until after it doesn't matter as much. In other words, that stuff can't mess up your throw if you aren't doing it yet. Once you know how to do it you won't do stuff that messes it up. Obsessing about it before you get the hit right is just wasting time.

Most players who have played for any amount of time probably knows what a good hit feels like, but the real issue is in producing it on any consistent basis.

And if you focus on getting that hit right first and just do everything else to make that hit stronger then it will be easy, but time consuming, to get that consistency. It's just that most people don't think of it or practice it that way.

If anyone wants to do what I did and waste 4 years working on the wrong stuff they're more than welcome to. I will say that it's a frustrating way to try to learn to throw.

FWIW, I think he would benefit from building his throw from the hit back. If he added each step from the hit back with the goal of making the hit stronger he could add power. I can see how it would be difficult to justify that when you're already doing it 90% right when other golfers are striving to get it 50%-60% right (and focusing on stuff that will only jump them up to 55%-65% right).

 

[JoshEpoo]

Most players who have played for any amount of time probably knows what a good hit feels like, but the real issue is in producing it on any consistent basis.

No. Most players never even get close to hitting it on a golf course.

 

[wolito]

That is some crazy far reach back! Also tons of height on that disc but man you got some distance there. It is just a great feeling to throw putters for distance!

 

[The Hammer]

I find it depressing that many of the members of this forum consistently berate those that are truely offering advice or tips that they have found to help them. I think a lot of it has to do with jealousy. It is getting to a point where the only ones left will be talentless douche bags telling each other knock-knock jokes and telling everyone else that they are "doing it wrong". All while rocking their completely un-impressive 800 ratings, yet thinking that they have all the disc golf answers.

I don't think Kachtz has thin-skin, by any means. Since day one of his posting here he has been called a liar, and told that his form is all jacked up. I don't remember him once lashing out at those same a-holes. He got a lot of disrespect and rude behavior directed his way, for pretty much no reason. Granted, there were several folks that were genuinely trying to help and be encouraging, but they were the minority.

Kachtz,
If you are ever in Arizona, hit me up. I would love to play a round with you and maybe get some tips on my distance lines.

 

[dodgeball]

If they mattered as much as you're saying he wouldn't be throwing far. Not if you build your throw

So it seems this is a big part of this argument. You and a lot of people on here seem to think that as long as u can throw really, really far, nothing else matters. All the focus on oat and cleaning up your form should just be cast by the wayside!? If u still say that (which I have hunch u will) that we just need to 'focus' on the hit, pound that proverbial hammer, etc., I'll say that most players would still not come close to the distances katchz or other big hitters can achieve. So the rest of us should just give it up all together, I guess.

And I got to call u a bit Garu. In an earlier thread started by katchz, u were a lot more critical of his form than now. Maybe u have evolved in your thinking over time, but it does make your argument now seem a little inconsistent.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24146

 

[Technohic]

So it seems this is a big part of this argument. You and a lot of people on here seem to think that as long as u can throw really, really far, nothing else matters. All the focus on oat and cleaning up your form should just be cast by the wayside!? If u still say that (which I have hunch u will) that we just need to 'focus' on the hit, pound that proverbial hammer, etc., I'll say that most players would still not come close to the distances katchz or other big hitters can achieve. So the rest of us should just give it up all together, I guess.

And I got to call u a bit Garu. In an earlier thread started by katchz, u were a lot more critical of his form than now. Maybe u have evolved in your thinking over time, but it does make your argument now seem a little inconsistent.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24146

Its not that nothing else matters, because they do, just not as much. The thing is it has been verified by others he can do those other important things.

See, what's so special about what he does do extremely well is it is the most elusive part of all that most of us don't do. I've studied videos a lot and his video shows it better than maybe any I have seen and maybe its because the other things are out of whack to where I can see it but he explains it well, and I do see it well and think I can really use it.

Of course, I'm talking about really hitting it here. I can throw 350' and I still am not hitting it at all. Others might throw 400' and are "half" hitting it. Anything that helps you see how to do that is putting you on the edge of a breakthrough and a very big one at that. From there, the other things you mention will help with control and timing to where you will gain a little, but thats the important part.

Think of it like wanting to race your car. You can do things like change spark plugs, tailpipes and the carburetor to get a little more power and can put some spoilers on, some shocks, and some tires for some extra speed and handling; but nothing is going to do it as much as putting in a big ass engine! Thats what part of the throw he does REALLY well.

 

[garublador]

So it seems this is a big part of this argument. You and a lot of people on here seem to think that as long as u can throw really, really far, nothing else matters.

That's true, as long as you understand that getting the hit right is the same as throwing really, really far.

All the focus on oat and cleaning up your form should just be cast by the wayside!? If u still say that (which I have hunch u will) that we just need to 'focus' on the hit, pound that proverbial hammer, etc., I'll say that most players would still not come close to the distances katchz or other big hitters can achieve.

The thing is that we have a video that can teach most anyone how to perform the entire rest of the throw correctly. The Dan Beto video teaches that. Almost all disc golfers can do that with a little work and there's no reason for kachtz to rehash any of that. That part is all figured out and it only takes a 6.5 minute video to show anyone how to learn it and it's free on the internet. What this thread is illustrating is what needs to happen to get to the next level. The whole point is to show how to throw as far as him, not how to plateau at 350'. Very few people can do it so the more information we have on how to do it and how to learn it helps.

Look at it this way. I've read every single post on snap at DGR. Count how many that is and how many words there are. It's a lot. kachtz's video and explanation helped me understand a couple things that I didn't understand before. Not a lot of people actually have anything to add to those conversations but kachtz does and people still insist on pushing him away. Sometime I wonder if people actually want to learn to throw farther or not.

So the rest of us should just give it up all together, I guess.

Your choices are to either get stuck at throwing fairway drivers 350' or learn the stuff he's trying to teach. I'm not sure what other option you're looking for. You don't have to learn to throw that far. No one here is making you. That doesn't mean that the people who do want to learn to throw like that shouldn't have access to all possible resources.

And I got to call u a bit Garu. In an earlier thread started by katchz, u were a lot more critical of his form than now. Maybe u have evolved in your thinking over time, but it does make your argument now seem a little inconsistent.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24146

What are you calling me out on? He got his nose angle stuff figured out and now he's throwing his putters 100' further. The fact that he found a way to do it that was different from what I said just emphasizes the point that learning to throw like him has little to do with anything except for that part of the throw he's talking about. I stand by that advice, too. I think he could still throw farther if he fixed his reach back. I've even said it a couple times in this thread. I've also said many times now that his reach back is outside the scope of what he's trying to teach. The first 7 seconds of the video is a freeze of the start of the part of the throw he's talking about. It all happens after the reach back and can be performed without a reach back.

 

[Beable]

A theme that you see a lot on DGR is the people there saying over and over that even though it looks like the guys who can throw really far have wildly different form, they all have great late acceleration. So you'll see people watching videos of people throwing far and trying to break down the similarities and differences between their throws...not talking about how Guy X isn't throwing exactly right because he's not doing it like the people on the internet say to do it.

Most of the technique that is preached on this board comes from DGR. Take a look at the threads that katchz has posted on over there, and notice how differently people treat him there.

 

[jrawk]

KACHTZ in actual stroke play.

Here's the vid i kept trying to upload yesterday. HD resolution available. Filmed at Patapsco and Signal View

Notes:
1) Look how much more controlled his teeshots are when he's not gunning for distance. No crazy runup. No crazy reachback. It's all about the hammer pound.
2) Yes, he is human and hits trees like the rest of us.
3) Commentary provided by myself and Prerube. The last two clips do not have sound because the wind was crazy loud into the microphone.



Let the critique begin. opcorn:

 

[Technohic]

Sorry T. This one just got under my skin y'know.

I'll let it die

Thanks :thmbup:

 

[dodgeball]

That's true, as long as you understand that getting the hit right is the same as throwing really, really far.The thing is that we have a video that can teach most anyone how to perform the entire rest of the throw correctly. The Dan Beto video teaches that. Almost all disc golfers can do that with a little work and there's no reason for kachtz to rehash any of that. That part is all figured out and it only takes a 6.5 minute video to show anyone how to learn it and it's free on the internet. What this thread is illustrating is what needs to happen to get to the next level. The whole point is to show how to throw as far as him, not how to plateau at 350'. Very few people can do it so the more information we have on how to do it and how to learn it helps.

Look at it this way. I've read every single post on snap at DGR. Count how many that is and how many words there are. It's a lot. kachtz's video and explanation helped me understand a couple things that I didn't understand before. Not a lot of people actually have anything to add to those conversations but kachtz does and people still insist on pushing him away. Sometime I wonder if people actually want to learn to throw farther or not.

Your choices are to either get stuck at throwing fairway drivers 350' or learn the stuff he's trying to teach. I'm not sure what other option you're looking for. You don't have to learn to throw that far. No one here is making you. That doesn't mean that the people who do want to learn to throw like that shouldn't have access to all possible resources.

What are you calling me out on? He got his nose angle stuff figured out and now he's throwing his putters 100' further. The fact that he found a way to do it that was different from what I said just emphasizes the point that learning to throw like him has little to do with anything except for that part of the throw he's talking about. I stand by that advice, too. I think he could still throw farther if he fixed his reach back. I've even said it a couple times in this thread. I've also said many times now that his reach back is outside the scope of what he's trying to teach. The first 7 seconds of the video is a freeze of the start of the part of the throw he's talking about. It all happens after the reach back and can be performed without a reach back.

So u say as long as u can 'hit' it then u can drive 400'? I just disagree. I'm sure u know more about disc golf than me, but I know myself better than anyone and I don't see myself throwing even close to that far. I do know that strength and natural athletic ability matters. Why would these two things matter in every other sport and athletic endeavor but not for disc golf?? But frankly I couldn't care less if I'm never able throw that far and certainly will never lose a minute of sleep over it. If it's as elusive as u say it is, then I certainly don't want to spend the years that it takes to 'get' it. I'd rather spend my time developing other shots than just trying to shoot these kind of distances. Maybe u and others take this sport more seriously than I do and will want to put in the time it takes to achieve these distances.

Garu, I know we've been having a back and forth thing right now, but this is not just directed at you. I've been noticing a real Us v. Them thing on here lately (but going back awhile really) regarding how far you can throw or how far people think you should be able to throw. I think this is one of the worst things for new people coming into the sport to witness. They come on here and see the distances that some people can throw and feel they will never measure up because they're no where close to those distances. Most people who can throw 350-400+ start out throwing pretty close to those distances. That's great and yeah, maybe I am sometimes jealous. But I don't think we need to make new players feel like they need to throw this far to be able to play and enjoy the game!

 

[barneco]

I'm following the discussion, and am quite intrigued by what seems to be the accepted fact that, tangential elements of the throw aside, he's nailing the important part, the hit. While the original description attempted to describe this part, I'm still not sure exactly what I should be focusing on...the key elements of the "good" part. The resulting discussion has danced around what NOT to focus on in the video while really only referring to the fact that he's got the hit right...not(at least that I've been able to decipher) what it is that he's doing right and how I can relate that to what I'm seeing in the video.

Would anyone like to take a stab at summarizing the element(s) that I should be focusing on here, and what I should be looking for in the video that demonstrates it?

 

[dodgeball]

Here's the vid i kept trying to upload yesterday. HD resolution available. Filmed at Patapsco and Signal View

Notes:
1) Look how much more controlled his teeshots are when he's not gunning for distance. No crazy runup. No crazy reachback. It's all about the hammer pound.
2) Yes, he is human and hits trees like the rest of us.
3) Commentary provided by myself and Prerube. The last two clips do not have sound because the wind was crazy loud into the microphone.



Let the critique begin. opcorn:

Hey thanks for posting this! Watching this makes me think I could actually hang with him on a course like this. I'm still not crazy about his technique, but it seemed to get the job done.

 

[dodgeball]

I'm following the discussion, and am quite intrigued by what seems to be the accepted fact that, tangential elements of the throw aside, he's nailing the important part, the hit. While the original description attempted to describe this part, I'm still not sure exactly what I should be focusing on...the key elements of the "good" part. The resulting discussion has danced around what NOT to focus on in the video while really only referring to the fact that he's got the hit right...not(at least that I've been able to decipher) what it is that he's doing right and how I can relate that to what I'm seeing in the video.

Would anyone like to take a stab at summarizing the element(s) that I should be focusing on here, and what I should be looking for in the video that demonstrates it?

Yeah, goooood question! I'd be interested in the answer too.

 

[Monocacy]

Here's the vid i kept trying to upload yesterday. HD resolution available. Filmed at Patapsco and Signal View

Hey, give me a call if youse guys are playing Patapsco again, it is one of my favorite courses. I'll be playing there on Sunday with a group of the homeboys. Last time I played Patapsco I had exactly the same drive on #15 - landed by the tee to #14. :doh:

On topic - the most amazing thing to me about kachtz's putter drive was watching the disc pivot all the way around his pinch grip at the end of the throw. Freaking amazing! I definitely need to work on that. Keep posting anytime you want, some of us appreciate it.