Putter Drives - Form Tips -

[jrawk]

will do. we were going to play in the punisher tomorrow but the weather didn't look so hot and missed registration.

 

[Technohic]

You guys can improve. There is no us vs them; it is, and always will be you against yourself. Your success is directly related to your goals and you ability to just never settle for less. I live, and DIE by this in more than just disc golf.

When I first came here, I thought I threw 300' most of the time. Figured it was accurate because of football field work and such; but then I eventually google earthed it and realised I might have been lucky to be throwing 250' lol.

Started the disc down thing and putter only rounds for a little while, but wouldn't stick with it too long and would add the fairway drivers in pretty quick, Teebirds, Leopards and Preds and still sneak in a flippy fast driver like a Sidewinder or Valk, but was still not happy. Did some Leopard only as far as faster than mid but didn't see much improvement (and why I love Leos but do not recommend them to learn with because they are over forgiving) disced down again with using a Medius, Impact and Panther as my fastest discs, and Improved a bit. Then switched to trying Cheetahs and Gazelles, preferred Cheetahs which seems to just be a more stable and slightly less forgiving Leopard and saw it flying further than flippy high speed drivers for me, and I'll be damned, I was getting legitamat 300' golf distance. Nevermind field distance.

Well, I was happy with this for a while last summer, and you know me, discs were in and out; including my beloved KC Cheetah, that changed all the time, but I was a bit stuck on 300' no matter what I threw. Then, I had some moments where I felt like I was losing ground. So I hit a field toward the end of last year and did 100 throws of the Pec drill, 100 hyzer Drills, then 100 just standstill drills and I think a little more than that.

That was at the end of summer last year, and even though I have had some breaks throughout winter, it seems so far that I am hitting closer to and up to 350', even a little beyond; but thats my new plateau.

The thing is, I probably need to do more of those drills to get everthing in line but the big plateau here is that 350' "Strong arm limit" which I am working on getting past, but what REALLY is going to give me the next bump, and the biggest bump is exactly what is in khachts video. It's something I knew that I should be looking for but it is elusive for whatever reason, and thats why you see some of us get geeked out about just that one thing. I've worked on everything else hoping to find it but at the same time, improving in other ways.

If you can just get that one thing, it would be worth it to start all over again and just build around that. Not that you will be perfect with that one thing, but it is just that important if you want to throw far, and what I was getting at before; anyone can do it. Just don't give up and keep working on what you can.

It's one of those things that you know you are looking for something, but you wont know exactly what it is until you find it. Hopefully now at least you have an idea of what you are looking for.

I'm following the discussion, and am quite intrigued by what seems to be the accepted fact that, tangential elements of the throw aside, he's nailing the important part, the hit. While the original description attempted to describe this part, I'm still not sure exactly what I should be focusing on...the key elements of the "good" part. The resulting discussion has danced around what NOT to focus on in the video while really only referring to the fact that he's got the hit right...not(at least that I've been able to decipher) what it is that he's doing right and how I can relate that to what I'm seeing in the video.

Would anyone like to take a stab at summarizing the element(s) that I should be focusing on here, and what I should be looking for in the video that demonstrates it?

Biggest part is look at that still shot the first few seconds of the video. Look at his disc and watch it from there to the release.

 

[dodgeball]

Hey Techno, that was a good read and interesting to hear about your experiences and how you have improved. I've certainly nothing against improving and hopefully I underestimate myself and my abilities. I just still have a problem with the whole notion of this big 'secret' and that if I somehow manage to figure it all out, I will throwing these big distances. I doubt that it's that simple. I think I basically get what people are talking about when they say things like 'feeling the hit' and 'pound the hammer.' As I understand it, the big things are to get your complete weight centered over your plant leg as you begin the pull,achieve maximum shoulder rotation at this same point, and then uncoil starting with your core and let all the pent up energy whip the shoulders and arm around. I get all that and know what a good rip feels like. It's just even with all that, I'm just not going to be a 400 or even 350' thrower probably. But I'm totally cool with that! Frankly, I'll just be happy when my backhand catches up with my forehand in distance. I practice backhand way more than forehand, yet it will still come up a good 50' short or more driving off the same teepad. That part is frustrating! If I can get to the point where I'm about equally confident in either shot, I'd be pretty happy.

 

[jrawk]

Hey Techno, that was a good read and interesting to hear about your experiences and how you have improved. I've certainly nothing against improving and hopefully I underestimate myself and my abilities. I just still have a problem with the whole notion of this big 'secret' and that if I somehow manage to figure it all out, I will throwing these big distances. I doubt that it's that simple. I think I basically get what people are talking about when they say things like 'feeling the hit' and 'pound the hammer.' As I understand it, the big things are to get your complete weight centered over your plant leg as you begin the pull,achieve maximum shoulder rotation at this same point, and then uncoil starting with your core and let all the pent up energy whip the shoulders and arm around. I get all that and know what a good rip feels like. It's just even with all that, I'm just not going to be a 400 or even 350' thrower probably. But I'm totally cool with that! Frankly, I'll just be happy when my backhand catches up with my forehand in distance. I practice backhand way more than forehand, yet it will still come up a good 50' short or more driving off the same teepad. That part is frustrating! If I can get to the point where I'm about equally confident in either shot, I'd be pretty happy.

Dodge, seems your concern is Physical size versus technique. If i follow, you don't believe you can achieve long distance without size and strength. One or many examples: Nikko Lacastro is a tiny dude and can huck 450 footers accurately with ease. It's all about technique, perfect practice, patients, and more patients. This is the way golf is: Easy to learn, hard to master. I didn't think i could hit 400, but i have a handful of times. As soon as that 400 ft disc leaves your hand, you know it, because everything felt like it clicked.

 

[bodomdethllica]

It seems like a distance line to me. What other type of throw goes ~45' high and tracks left-to-right for the majority of its flight when thrown hyzer rhbh? Golf lines generally have a lower ceiling and more defined direction, but you wouldn't be breaking 400' with a putter on a low straight line.

guess you never look for sky anny's i use em a lot over trees

 

[The Hammer]

Dodge, seems your concern is Physical size versus technique. If i follow, you don't believe you can achieve long distance without size and strength. One or many examples: Nikko Lacastro is a tiny dude and can huck 450 footers accurately with ease. It's all about technique, perfect practice, patients, and more patients. This is the way golf is: Easy to learn, hard to master. I didn't think i could hit 400, but i have a handful of times. As soon as that 400 ft disc leaves your hand, you know it, because everything felt like it clicked.

Spot on, right there. Once you get to the point where you can consistently feel everything "click", you begin to realize it actually takes very little power to produce a 400' drive. Garb is totally right that the very last second before release is the most crucial in finding where it all "clicks". Personally, I was able to find it on my own in a similar fashion to Kachtz. I never read anything or did any drills. I just watched a few people do it, then replicated. I figured it was easy as that until I started trying to show others.

 

[CwAlbino]

...

From reading this I think we are both coming at this from different angles, I'll explain a little more in depth. I don't have the problem he's trying to teach. The people I've taught are past that 350' benchmark (aside from my dad, he's still having problems) and I don't preach distance before control. The main two people that I teach are throwing putters 250'+ accurately, I've never even shown them a distance line. Their distance line is a hyzer flip S shot.

That "hit" isn't the main thing for me because I've got it. My max distance isn't 350 but more 450-500 (It's been about 475 lately). What I focus on more than anything else is accuracy. You CANNOT gain accuracy without "clean" form. I've never had a problem grasping the points he's bringing up, and thought they were on here already, just worded differently:

first - notice how my hand is in line with my elbow from my shoulder, everything from your index finger all the way to your shoulder should be in a straight line... a lot of players tend to get their elbow low, and kind of whip there hand around their lower body... your hand should be higher than your shoulder in the follow through, the people who "strong arm" and do early releases all have a follow through, where their hand is below their shoulder on the follow though.

2nd - notice the angle of my feet, in relation to where i am aiming. i am aiming about where that little white sign is you can see in the distance, my feet are aligned up way to the left of that, because if you want to get full extension in your throw, your feet will be setup like this, if you kind of follow tee pads and throw in line with the teepad, you are automatically going to force yourself to either release early, or pull with your arm low, or "grip lock" and throw way right..

3rd - i want you to notice my weight is always center to myself, meaning i am not leaning forward or backward, until the moment of the snap, then my weight goes forward, not forward in the direction of the disc, but forward in the direction of my run up, which is very important, otherwise you will find yourself leaning backwards when you throw, and that will make you throw nose up and various other things.

1. "keep your arm straight, pull across your chest"
2. "Take aim by making that line from hit to reachback toward the target. TURN YOUR BACK, you don't have to keep the target in view the entire time. Visualize with your mind and take aim in your mind through muscle memory. His little thing about feet angle he doesn't even do (exaggerate as much) in the course video.
3. This one I've never thought about, but I do this without knowing it.


As for the course video, his form is much cleaner. He isn't even turning his head back for a full reachback. If he isn't doing the same thing on the course as he is doing in the video, WHY post it as an instructional. You can gain more distance in the field by hitting a "happy gilmore" (proven by Mythbusters), but do you see that in golf instructional videos?

Dodge, seems your concern is Physical size versus technique. If i follow, you don't believe you can achieve long distance without size and strength. One or many examples: Nikko Lacastro is a tiny dude and can huck 450 footers accurately with ease. It's all about technique, perfect practice, patients, and more patients. This is the way golf is: Easy to learn, hard to master. I didn't think i could hit 400, but i have a handful of times. As soon as that 400 ft disc leaves your hand, you know it, because everything felt like it clicked.

I actually agree with you. Physical size (muscle mass) does not matter. However, length and speed matters. Mostly speed with late acceleration, length just helps the acceleration part. I've already said my max distance once, and I'm 6'0" 145 lbs with long arms.

 

[CwAlbino]

Spot on, right there. Once you get to the point where you can consistently feel everything "click", you begin to realize it actually takes very little power to produce a 400' drive. Garb is totally right that the very last second before release is the most crucial in finding where it all "clicks". Personally, I was able to find it on my own in a similar fashion to Kachtz. I never read anything or did any drills. I just watched a few people do it, then replicated. I figured it was easy as that until I started trying to show others.

I make people throw really slowly, and also show them the towel drill. Emphasize smooth is far and the whole wrist rubber band thing.

 

[jrawk]

1. "keep your arm straight, pull across your chest"

I don't think this is what Kachtz meant, but it is related. He is explaining that every part of your arm during the hit needs to remain in the same plane as your shoulders and your follow through should accentuate that same plane. But i do agree pulling across your chest will help you make the plane for the hit.

 

[dreadlock86]

big thanks to Garublador for maintaining a reasonable perspective and rational arguments (that are on-topic!!) through this entire thread.


if anyone here wants to criticize presentation over content (as someone mentioned, i forget who), then why are they talking about katchz and not sidewinding22? i know it's part of the act with the whole foghorn leghorn thing but it is incredibly patronizing, annoying and inappropriate for a discussing like this if things are to remain civil.


anyway, props to katchz. thanks for posting and i hope you continue to do so.

 

[Lewis]

Threads like this are helpful, but it's not helpful to say "anybody can learn to throw for the distance Katzch is getting." That's like saying "Anybody can learn to throw a 90mph fastball." Or "anybody can learn to hit a golf ball 300 yards." I'm not saying there's anyone who can't benefit from learning the right technique, or "the hit" or "the secret" or whatever, but the ultimate results are going to differ for everyone because our raw physical abilities are all different. Sure, throwing a disc is not about strength and power, but neither is pitching baseballs or hitting golf balls. I actually think it's more about having long arms, flexible limbs, elastic sinews, and fast-twitch muscles, and this seems to be more common in ectomorphs than in mesomorphs or endomorphs. Just because you discovered "the secret" doesn't mean you're going to throw putters 400' any more than me learning perfect pitching technique is going to have me throwing 90mph. You can train any horse to run faster, but a Clydesdale is never going to win the Belmont. All I'm saying is that setting unrealistic raw distance goals for people who don't have the right kind of athletic talent is going to lead to as much frustration as anything.

 

[jongoff09]

Threads like this are helpful, but it's not helpful to say "anybody can learn to throw for the distance Katzch is getting." That's like saying "Anybody can learn to throw a 90mph fastball." Or "anybody can learn to hit a golf ball 300 yards." I'm not saying there's anyone who can't benefit from learning the right technique, or "the hit" or "the secret" or whatever, but the ultimate results are going to differ for everyone because our raw physical abilities are all different. Sure, throwing a disc is not about strength and power, but neither is pitching baseballs or hitting golf balls. I actually think it's more about having long arms, flexible limbs, elastic sinews, and fast-twitch muscles, and this seems to be more common in ectomorphs than in mesomorphs or endomorphs. Just because you discovered "the secret" doesn't mean you're going to throw putters 400' any more than me learning perfect pitching technique is going to have me throwing 90mph. You can train any horse to run faster, but a Clydesdale is never going to win the Belmont. All I'm saying is that setting unrealistic raw distance goals for people who don't have the right kind of athletic talent is going to lead to as much frustration as anything.

Golf and baseball are two different things. I would say that anyone can LEARN to throw discs more than 400' and anyone can Learn to hit a golf ball 300 yds. Golf is all about technique and baseball takes some abnormal physical abilities to throw a baseball more than about 80 mph and no human should ever be able to throw a baseball more than about 105 mph because of our anatomy.

Someone earlier said that people that throw 350-400' start out close to that from the beginning; That is absolutely false for me. I started playing disc golf about 2 yrs ago and I didn't break 200' for almost 2 months. The next spring I broke 300' and after about a year and 2 month of playing I hit 400'. Last fall I hit 400' with a teebird (all of these are golf lines). I learned the technique and am now striving to get the full "hit" because right now I believe I am only getting half of it.

BTW, I also play golf and baseball and I learned to hit 300 yd drives in golf. After playing baseball for 12 yrs, my fastest pitch I threw was 76 mph. My elbow can't bend enough to throw any faster. Also, for reference, I am 5'9" and 130 lbs.

This thread has been a great read.

 

[Lewis]

I could be wrong about the thresholds that average joe can learn to achieve, but I don't think disc golf is unrewarding to those with abnormal physical abilities. Yes, throwing a baseball is a different skill from throwing a disc or hitting a golf ball, but I would be amazed if raw talent doesn't play a significant role. It is an athletic movement, after all, and not all of us are created equal. Have you considered that being an ectomorph, as you apparently are, might be a physical advantage? Either way, if golf ball-hitting ability translates to disc-throwing ability, I'm encouraged.

Golf and baseball are two different things. I would say that anyone can LEARN to throw discs more than 400' and anyone can Learn to hit a golf ball 300 yds. Golf is all about technique and baseball takes some abnormal physical abilities to throw a baseball more than about 80 mph and no human should ever be able to throw a baseball more than about 105 mph because of our anatomy.

Someone earlier said that people that throw 350-400' start out close to that from the beginning; That is absolutely false for me. I started playing disc golf about 2 yrs ago and I didn't break 200' for almost 2 months. The next spring I broke 300' and after about a year and 2 month of playing I hit 400'. Last fall I hit 400' with a teebird (all of these are golf lines). I learned the technique and am now striving to get the full "hit" because right now I believe I am only getting half of it.

BTW, I also play golf and baseball and I learned to hit 300 yd drives in golf. After playing baseball for 12 yrs, my fastest pitch I threw was 76 mph. My elbow can't bend enough to throw any faster. Also, for reference, I am 5'9" and 130 lbs.

This thread has been a great read.

 

[prerube]

I didn't want to be the first to say it, but there's definitely some oat here. To throw a putter that far and perfectly straight would be a feat, but your throw here was basically a big ole turnover. You've obviously got power to spare (wish I could buy some from ya, lol), but you might be better off tightening up your technique. One thing I noticed was that your reachback is a little inconsistent. You go from very high to really low and then to more or less level. From where you start the pull (very low), in order to have a consistent and straight pull, you would have to finish high, like SW said.

I have played with him and I can guarantee he is a damn good all around disc golfer. He can a throw a tight tunnel, I say him do it today at Hawk Hollow. He is an all around beast and would win any intermediate tourney anywhere.

 

[NatiBuckeye]

I read through this whole thread and I have one question pertaining to OAT. If an individuals form has OAT in it but they understand that and know how to control and use it does it matter?

I dont think it does. Keep posting man, I think your approach to maxing out that disc is very helpful and I still have not seen anyone else do the same thing throwing straight.

 

[Technohic]

Well, I went to a small course where not hole is really over 250' (and 2/3 that even get that long were pretty flooded so had to skip) and I was keeping in mind the arm position from the video.

1st tee off was not great. It was shorter than my normal throws by a long ways, but; I was doing what is probably a common thing for me while walking to my lie and waiting for the fiance and her boy to throw; and that is doing dry, walk through throws while I waited where I hold the disc and just guide my arm through the motions.

Well, right after that first drive, I was walking and did one of these dry runs just rotating my body, pulling my arm through close to my chest when my disc just took off! I wasn't even moving my arm fast at all, but I couldn't hold on to my putter. Im glad no one was walking next to me.

Now, I know this isn't entirely it but its just a baby step. I did play 2 rounds of the short, heavily wooded course and it was very easy for me to hit my lines through some very tight spots. The hard part was overthrowing the holes throwing like that. What I did for that part is make use of throwing at the ground a little in front of the basket and sliding or skipping up.

I am in dire need of field work right now.

 

[garublador]

So u say as long as u can 'hit' it then u can drive 400'?

That's mostly what I'm saying. If you can really "hit it" then you can drive 400', easy.

I'm sure u know more about disc golf than me, but I know myself better than anyone and I don't see myself throwing even close to that far. I do know that strength and natural athletic ability matters. Why would these two things matter in every other sport and athletic endeavor but not for disc golf??

It's not that they don't matter at all, it's that they're not required to throw that far. More strength and longer arms will help someone who's hitting it to throw farther, but they won't make someone who's not hitting it throw as far as someone who is.

Take David Wiggins Jr. for example. He holds the <13 year old distance record at 735'. Are you saying you can't throw >700' because you're not as strong as a 12 year old boy?

But frankly I couldn't care less if I'm never able throw that far and certainly will never lose a minute of sleep over it. If it's as elusive as u say it is, then I certainly don't want to spend the years that it takes to 'get' it. I'd rather spend my time developing other shots than just trying to shoot these kind of distances. Maybe u and others take this sport more seriously than I do and will want to put in the time it takes to achieve these distances.

That's perfectly fine. It's also outside the scope of this thread. This thread isn't about the only way to play disc golf, it's about what it takes to have the type of power that katchz (and several others) has.

Garu, I know we've been having a back and forth thing right now, but this is not just directed at you. I've been noticing a real Us v. Them thing on here lately (but going back awhile really) regarding how far you can throw or how far people think you should be able to throw.

No worries. I was going to post something similar. I hope anyone I'm arguing with isn't taking it personally, either. I'm just trying to dispel common myths about what it really takes to throw far.

I think this is one of the worst things for new people coming into the sport to witness. They come on here and see the distances that some people can throw and feel they will never measure up because they're no where close to those distances.

For the record I'm not saying that most people will be able to throw like that. I'm saying that most people have the physical ability to do it. A vast majority of disc golfer's won't "get it." Hopefully, because of thread like this and drills like the hammer pound drill, more people will be able to throw like this than before. It used to be that you pretty much just had to "get it" from the start. There wasn't a way to reliably teach it. Some of us want that to change and every little bit helps.

Most people who can throw 350-400+ start out throwing pretty close to those distances. That's great and yeah, maybe I am sometimes jealous.

I think most adult males can learn to throw 350' with fairway drivers as long as they do it right. That's something that can be taught with a high success rate. Fewer, but many more than before, will hit 400' now that we have the hammer pound drills. Way fewer still will learn to throw like katchz but that doesn't mean that no one should try.

But I don't think we need to make new players feel like they need to throw this far to be able to play and enjoy the game!

We can't tell anyone how to enjoy the game. What we can do is give accurate information so people who do find it fun to try to perfect their throw. It's super easy to not do this stuff if you don't find it fun. It's extremely difficult to do this stuff if no one talks about it. There's no reason not to have this information out there. It's up to everyone as individuals to do what they want with it. If you don't want to throw like that, don't work on it. If you do, here's a bunch of great information that will help.

 

[garublador]

I'm following the discussion, and am quite intrigued by what seems to be the accepted fact that, tangential elements of the throw aside, he's nailing the important part, the hit. While the original description attempted to describe this part, I'm still not sure exactly what I should be focusing on...the key elements of the "good" part. The resulting discussion has danced around what NOT to focus on in the video while really only referring to the fact that he's got the hit right...not(at least that I've been able to decipher) what it is that he's doing right and how I can relate that to what I'm seeing in the video.

Would anyone like to take a stab at summarizing the element(s) that I should be focusing on here, and what I should be looking for in the video that demonstrates it?

The hammer pound drills are the only way I know to teach this stuff. You should focus on those.

Here's another thread at DGR that shows what happens during the hit, but it's a lot easier to get the "feel" of it via the hammer pound drills than it is to try to emulate all of this stuff in the correct order in a split second:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21385

On topic - the most amazing thing to me about kachtz's putter drive was watching the disc pivot all the way around his pinch grip at the end of the throw. Freaking amazing! I definitely need to work on that. Keep posting anytime you want, some of us appreciate it.

Exactly! That's what "full hitting" it means.

I just still have a problem with the whole notion of this big 'secret' and that if I somehow manage to figure it all out, I will throwing these big distances. I doubt that it's that simple.

It is that simple. It's just not that easy to learn.

Threads like this are helpful, but it's not helpful to say "anybody can learn to throw for the distance Katzch is getting."

It's not that we're saying, "Anyone can learn it," it's that we're saying, "Adult males have the physical ability to learn it." It's not physical ability that's holding you back, it's that you aren't "hitting it" right. Anyone who has the drive to really work on it will be able to do it, it's just that few have that drive. Here's a thread at DGR about it:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21211

Or "anybody can learn to hit a golf ball 300 yards."

My understanding is that anyone can learn to hit a golf ball 300 yards. You just have to work really hard to do it.

I actually think it's more about having long arms, flexible limbs, elastic sinews, and fast-twitch muscles, and this seems to be more common in ectomorphs than in mesomorphs or endomorphs.

It's not. There are plenty of disc golfers who don't meet any of those criteria that can throw far.

Just because you discovered "the secret" doesn't mean you're going to throw putters 400' any more than me learning perfect pitching technique is going to have me throwing 90mph.

Maybe not 400', but really close. It really does mean that you'll be able to throw far, but it's a called "secret" for a reason. It's not easy for most people to do.

You can train any horse to run faster, but a Clydesdale is never going to win the Belmont. All I'm saying is that setting unrealistic raw distance goals for people who don't have the right kind of athletic talent is going to lead to as much frustration as anything.

We aren't talking about setting world records here. Er, wait, we are. Remember that the 6th longest throw on record was performed by a 12 year old boy.

Even if most people don't learn to throw like this, it's important for anyone looking to throw farther to know that throwing farther takes better mechanics and timing, not more strength. That applies to someone looking to throw 300' as much as it does to someone looking to throw 500'.

I read through this whole thread and I have one question pertaining to OAT. If an individuals form has OAT in it but they understand that and know how to control and use it does it matter?

That's kind of a weird question because if you can control it, then you can throw without it. The goal is to be able to throw with as much or as little as you'd ever need in both directions with as much control as possible

 

[Lewis]

We aren't talking about setting world records here. Er, wait, we are. Remember that the 6th longest throw on record was performed by a 12 year old boy.

As long as we keep in perspective that we're discussing the work of superheroes.

 

[NatiBuckeye]

I guess I did not mean control OAT I meant understand the path your discs take based on your OAT throw and use that to your advantage.