Question for Big Forehand Throwers

[Posey Ching]

Next time I go out I'm going to have to try Avery's power grip. I just looked it up, the pic of the gray disc in my first post is actually from avery's web page and I didn't even know it google images ftw

yeah, I've been trying Avery's grip and I just can't throw it as well as my one finger grip (like the one you have pictured with the orange disc). I get some wobble on the release with the Avery grip. It's just not comfortable to have more then one under the disc for me.

But if I put 2 fingers on the rim, the grip with the middle finger right on top of the index works pretty good (like the guy in the youtube video). But in Avery's pic, it looks like there is a good amount of space between the index pad and middle pad.

What do you think about this grip pictured? Sometimes I'll put my middle finger on there for more control. Ever tried that one? Not good?

 

[Posey Ching]

Also, it seems that i can cock my wrist/disc back farther when I have just the index finger pad on the rim. If I put the middle finger pad on the rim, I can't move the wrist/disc back as far.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also, it seems that i can cock my wrist/disc back farther when I have just the index finger pad on the rim. If I put the middle finger pad on the rim, I can't move the wrist/disc back as far.

Which finger you use should not affect wrist movement. The wrist cocking is incidental from the throwing motion of creating snap. Take your regular grip, put your middle finger over the index and then slide the index finger back so the thumb doesn't move, thats your power grip.

Using the middle finger creates more power because its longer and generates more leverage. In the vid Chris talks about closing the fingers and I generate a lot more closing power with the middle finger than I can with the index finger.

 

[Posey Ching]

Which finger you use should not affect wrist movement. The wrist cocking is incidental from the throwing motion of creating snap. Take your regular grip, put your middle finger over the index and then slide the index finger back so the thumb doesn't move, thats your power grip.

Using the middle finger creates more power because its longer and generates more leverage. In the vid Chris talks about closing the fingers and I generate a lot more closing power with the middle finger than I can with the index finger.

But when you look at Avery's grip, the middle finger is already closed. Chris was talking about how the fingers close on the snap. But Avery already has it that way from the beginning. Notice the space between Avery's index pad and middle pad? In Chris's video, that space isn't there in his grip.

 

[Jax11]

For the sake of not quoting a massive post I am not going to quote tim.

I read your post and found it very informative and helpful, thanks for taking the time to type that all out. I primarily use the split-finger grip for FH. I have also done the "two scores one FH and one BH rounds" for practice. You stated you prefer the straight-line opposed to the S-curve for Big D forehand throws. I am curious what discs you use for that? I know you stated you had Firebirds and Teebirds in your bag. Do you use one or both of those? I can get 400' out of a S-curve flex shot, but have not had such success with the straight line.

I have also tried the Avery Jenkins power grip and have had mixed results with it. I may give it a few tries next I am at the practice field.

 

[sidewinder22]

But when you look at Avery's grip, the middle finger is already closed. Chris was talking about how the fingers close on the snap. But Avery already has it that way from the beginning. Notice the space between Avery's index pad and middle pad? In Chris's video, that space isn't there in his grip.

The middle finger is open, not closed, my index finger is bent(just like Avery's) but its not completely closed either with some space between them. My index finger goes to about a 90 degree bend which is more comfortable. Most of the power(90%+) comes from the middle finger in this grip. There is still some power from the index finger in this grip in the start of the snap and finishes with the middle finger.

Chris looks like his is using another variation of the power grip or stacked grip.

I played with Jim Myers(five time world distance champ) and he asked what grip I was using, so I showed it to him and he said that Scott Stokely uses the same grip. I also played with Avery, although he didn't throw any FH shots that round, but after he saw one of my FH drives he said thats what he should have thrown. I had a 500'+ FH drive the other weekend at Ptap hole 15 although its downhill and went 40' past the basket.

 

[sirflicksalot]

i throw like a girl 300 ft on good throws but i do manly forehand throws i just have more accuracy with the forehand oh yeah i throw any thing from 167 to 176 and then its good 172 for me goes the furthest but doesn't fight the wind good wind 175 all the way

 

[sirflicksalot]

gave the power grip a chance and you will throw further with it just not as much control for me

 

[CwAlbino]

Great post t i m, I think we've both made long posts about forehands before. I need to find it, I agree with everything you said. I have a hard time with release angle on mids on drives because I don't practice it as much, but drives are fine. I actually find the hyzer flip to be the easiest throw, but that's just me. Some of my longest throws were with a max weight beat to hell Star destroyer that would flip and never come back. I actually went out and threw a forehand only round today after I made my post because I hadn't practiced forehand as much recently. I used to do just as you with a friend, forehand only then backhand only. Even thumbers/tomahawks as forehands.

It amazes me that there are people on this board who carry separate discs for forehand and backhand throws... that is just a huge waste of space in the bag and shows a weakness in form, or a weakness in disc selection.

I used to do this, mainly because my backhand couldn't handle the overstable discs in my bag. I've since wisened up and also have comparable distance on forehand and backhand, so I can use all both ways.

found it:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4470&highlight=cwalbino&page=3

 

[Gary Wittig]

168-174 depending on type of throw.

I throw BH on my drives. If I want it to go straight I chuck lighter(170) and close to the body. If I want a heizer/anheizer/helix/doublehelix I toss heavy(174) with my arm extended far out.

 

[I3ooI3oo]

I keep a 150 class Valkyrie in the back for special occasions, one of which is a long low Forehand throw. When I don't have the room to walk up or not enough room for a full swing of my arm. When I do FH throw it I must be release with a major hyzer (45 degrees) to prevent it from just flipping to a anhyzer. It is all about the snap and can be done with very little room.

 

[t i m]

For the sake of not quoting a massive post I am not going to quote tim.

I read your post and found it very informative and helpful, thanks for taking the time to type that all out. I primarily use the split-finger grip for FH. I have also done the "two scores one FH and one BH rounds" for practice. You stated you prefer the straight-line opposed to the S-curve for Big D forehand throws. I am curious what discs you use for that? I know you stated you had Firebirds and Teebirds in your bag. Do you use one or both of those? I can get 400' out of a S-curve flex shot, but have not had such success with the straight line.

I have also tried the Avery Jenkins power grip and have had mixed results with it. I may give it a few tries next I am at the practice field.

I'm glad people found my post informative -- after almost 13 years of playing forehand dominant rounds, I feel like its one of the areas I feel like I can be most helpful in giving advice.

For long, flat, straight forehands with max distance, right now I am partial to worn-in Star Destroyers in the 167-169g range. Though I've gotten similar distance out of worn in Champ/Star Wraiths (170-172), Champion Valkyries (170s), light Star Teebirds (150s), and midweight Champion Orcs (160-164g).

You need a disc that is broken in enough that you can release it with a strong hyzer and it will hyzer flip almost immediately into a long, straight shot that does a flat-line "S" if that makes sense... What I mean by a flat-line "S" is that the disc pops up, goes just barely anhyzer then slowly comes back flat and then just barely hyzer without ever moving more than 2-3' off its original line.

For max straight-line distance, I'm throwing a worn-in long range driver on the same release angle as I would throw a max-weight firebird that I wanted to throw on a low, skipping shot on a sharp right-hooking hole. You have to know your discs and know what is going to hyzer flip to that beautiful flat line throw.

This is accurate enough to use even in tightly wooded shots... I throw a lot of long straight forehands at Iron Hill for instance, a course with only two semi-field holes on the whole Par-72 course. It's all woods, where the big-S forehand with an overstable disc would be pretty much useless.

 

[t i m]

The middle finger is open, not closed, my index finger is bent(just like Avery's) but its not completely closed either with some space between them. My index finger goes to about a 90 degree bend which is more comfortable. Most of the power(90%+) comes from the middle finger in this grip. There is still some power from the index finger in this grip in the start of the snap and finishes with the middle finger.

Chris looks like his is using another variation of the power grip or stacked grip.

I played with Jim Myers(five time world distance champ) and he asked what grip I was using, so I showed it to him and he said that Scott Stokely uses the same grip. I also played with Avery, although he didn't throw any FH shots that round, but after he saw one of my FH drives he said thats what he should have thrown. I had a 500'+ FH drive the other weekend at Ptap hole 15 although its downhill and went 40' past the basket.

I'm familiar with Ptap hole 15, and I am amazed you kept a shot in the air that long through all those trees. Though with that downhill, I wouldn't consider that a good example of forehand distance. From what I recall, it's probably about 20-30' feet of elevation drop from the long tee to the green basket... and that hill is the most notorious spot on the course for rolls. I think I've had shots hit 200' early and still end up 100' past the basket...

All that said, it's still impressive to get a forehand past the basket long-to-long on that hole. Since you're up in Columbia, MD, I'm curious if we've played together. Couldn't tell what your real name was from your profile, but kick me a PM if you'd like to get out and hit a round sometime. I'm down in Alexandria, VA, so it's not too bad to head up your way and I'd love to get in a couple of rounds at Ptap sometime soon. I haven't played there since the Punisher last year, and I was pretty embarrassed with my performance the second day -- felt like every single thing that could go wrong did. Would love to get back out there for a chance to get revenge on that course. That said, it will be a few weeks before I have a free weekend day to play... always enjoy seeing what another forehand-player can do on the course and seeing what I can learn.

 

[Jax11]

@ t i m:Thanks again t i m, I have a few of those molds in my bag right now and will be trying that straight line flight out the next time I can get to the practice field. As far as the hyzer flip goes approximately what angle of hyzer do you release it at?

@ I300I300: I found FH putts are useful when you don't have a lot of room or go 2 or 3 feet into the brush. I am not sure if its legal or not, but in rec rounds I will hold the brush back with my left hand and flick a putter out with my right. I have made a couple of 15 footers from bad spots using this.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm familiar with Ptap hole 15, and I am amazed you kept a shot in the air that long through all those trees. Though with that downhill, I wouldn't consider that a good example of forehand distance. From what I recall, it's probably about 20-30' feet of elevation drop from the long tee to the green basket... and that hill is the most notorious spot on the course for rolls. I think I've had shots hit 200' early and still end up 100' past the basket...

All that said, it's still impressive to get a forehand past the basket long-to-long on that hole. Since you're up in Columbia, MD, I'm curious if we've played together. Couldn't tell what your real name was from your profile, but kick me a PM if you'd like to get out and hit a round sometime. I'm down in Alexandria, VA, so it's not too bad to head up your way and I'd love to get in a couple of rounds at Ptap sometime soon. I haven't played there since the Punisher last year, and I was pretty embarrassed with my performance the second day -- felt like every single thing that could go wrong did. Would love to get back out there for a chance to get revenge on that course. That said, it will be a few weeks before I have a free weekend day to play... always enjoy seeing what another forehand-player can do on the course and seeing what I can learn.

We haven't played together, but I'd like to sometime and Ptap is my fav course. Im playing the Soiree this weekend. I used to FH every throw until last year and most of my shots are BH now, except for some obvious FH hyzers. Yeah hole 15 long-long is definitely down a good 20'-30' elevation and 468', which is why I said its downhill distance. I have no prob hitting 350' flat and up to 400' occasionally. As you say, if I could only putt! Although its my approach game that is the worst part.

 

[t i m]

We haven't played together, but I'd like to sometime and Ptap is my fav course. Im playing the Soiree this weekend. I used to FH every throw until last year and most of my shots are BH now, except for some obvious FH hyzers. Yeah hole 15 long-long is definitely down a good 20'-30' elevation and 468', which is why I said its downhill distance. I have no prob hitting 350' flat and up to 400' occasionally. As you say, if I could only putt! Although its my approach game that is the worst part.

Good luck out at the Soiree this weekend. I'm very sad I won't be there. It pains me to miss the Soiree, which is one of my favorite tournaments on the closest good course to my house... (I've got a bunch of stuff closer, but nothing that I would consider a tournament caliber course).

I'll try to remember to kick a note your way in a couple of weeks when I know I will have any free time on a weekend and we can try for a round or two at Patapsco. I've got to get my game in shape for the Delaware Disc Golf Challenge in June, and haven't gotten to play much since last fall. Looking forward to it.

 

[t i m]

@ t i m:Thanks again t i m, I have a few of those molds in my bag right now and will be trying that straight line flight out the next time I can get to the practice field. As far as the hyzer flip goes approximately what angle of hyzer do you release it at?

@ I300I300: I found FH putts are useful when you don't have a lot of room or go 2 or 3 feet into the brush. I am not sure if its legal or not, but in rec rounds I will hold the brush back with my left hand and flick a putter out with my right. I have made a couple of 15 footers from bad spots using this.

Jax,
The angle for a hyzer flip depends on the disc and how flippy it is -- that's the main reason I use a split-finger grip, because I feel like it gives me a lot more control over the release angle. But for long hyzer-flips, I'd say the release angle varies from about 20* down to as much as 50* depending on how hard I am going to throw it and how worn-in the disc is... though somewhere around 25-30* is probably most common for my worn-in Destroyers and Orcs.

As far as the forehand putt goes, the forehand putt is awesome -- especially a forehand anhyzer putt/approach -- it will open lines you've never seen before. But as for using your left hand to move trees/bushes/branches out of the way, that's a no-no. Check the PDGA Rulebook on 803.05 "Obstacles and Relief"... the most pertinent part is the first bit, but the rest of it may be helpful to you as well (I'm just going to quote the first part):

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any
part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole, with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as
spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is
not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal
for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

This rule is frustrating if you follow it as written, and so a lot of players disregard it or bend the rules a bit, especially in casual rounds. This is totally okay if you're not a serious player -- the point is to have fun. But if you're going to ever be playing tournaments, then I encourage you to start playing by this rule. Playing this way will force you to learn to respect bad lies (and hopefully play in such a way as to avoid them) and when you do end up in awful places, it will force you to start using some creative shots and try new throws to salvage your score. You'll also learn when to cut your loses and throw back to the fairway. This is an invaluable part of becoming a seasoned, serious player.

(That said, I'm still learning when to cut my loses -- haven't quite learned when to throw out instead of just trying for glory... its so hard on the ego.)

 

[jtencer]

It amazes me that there are people on this board who carry separate discs for forehand and backhand throws... that is just a huge waste of space in the bag and shows a weakness in form, or a weakness in disc selection.

I carry a separate disc for forehand distance drives (Surge). This is because I am a backhand dominant player and I don't have the power FH to throw the same overstable discs I use for max D BH shots (Force).

That's not saying that I never throw the surge BH when I need a tighter line or the Force flick when I need a sharper hook, but by and large I use the surge for flicks and the force for backhands.

For reference, I throw a low hyzer-flip for both BH and FH. The BH is just about 80-100ft longer.

 

[Jax11]

Thanks t i m, its better to learn now on these forums then get called on it on the course. I just started playing last summer, but am hoping to become more serious and play in my local weekly doubles and hopefully get to a few tournaments this summer.

I also agree about the FH anhyzer putt/approach, it can really bail you out when you are in a tight spot where its awkward to throw a soft hyzer.

I tend to throw FH approach shots from one knee especially in heavier winds. My theory is it keeps the disc lower to the ground and allows you to throw let it elevate when traveling to the basket, instead of falling in.

 

[1978]

Jax,
The angle for a hyzer flip depends on the disc and how flippy it is -- that's the main reason I use a split-finger grip, because I feel like it gives me a lot more control over the release angle. But for long hyzer-flips, I'd say the release angle varies from about 20* down to as much as 50* depending on how hard I am going to throw it and how worn-in the disc is... though somewhere around 25-30* is probably most common for my worn-in Destroyers and Orcs.

As far as the forehand putt goes, the forehand putt is awesome -- especially a forehand anhyzer putt/approach -- it will open lines you've never seen before. But as for using your left hand to move trees/bushes/branches out of the way, that's a no-no. Check the PDGA Rulebook on 803.05 "Obstacles and Relief"... the most pertinent part is the first bit, but the rest of it may be helpful to you as well (I'm just going to quote the first part):

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.05 C. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any
part of any obstacle, including casual obstacles, between the lie and the hole, with one exception: A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as
spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round. Where it is
not known if an obstacle has become a factor during a round, it shall not be moved. It is legal
for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

This rule is frustrating if you follow it as written, and so a lot of players disregard it or bend the rules a bit, especially in casual rounds. This is totally okay if you're not a serious player -- the point is to have fun. But if you're going to ever be playing tournaments, then I encourage you to start playing by this rule. Playing this way will force you to learn to respect bad lies (and hopefully play in such a way as to avoid them) and when you do end up in awful places, it will force you to start using some creative shots and try new throws to salvage your score. You'll also learn when to cut your loses and throw back to the fairway. This is an invaluable part of becoming a seasoned, serious player.

(That said, I'm still learning when to cut my loses -- haven't quite learned when to throw out instead of just trying for glory... its so hard on the ego.)

This is the curse and the blessing of the rec player. They break in new courses by moving stuff and bending it, and destroy established courses by breaking trees.