Questions on hyzer-flip and flext shots

[fireborne]

Okay, I'm trying to understand how to throw these shots, but have a few questions about the varied results I get. Hopefully you guys & gals will be able to help me out with these problems.

Hyzer-flip:
As I understand it, a hyzer-flip consists of throwing an understable disc with a hyzer angle to make the hyzer flight characteristics of the release fight the understable tendency the disc imparts.

Q: When throwing hyzer-flip, do you impart some OAT to make this happen? For example, do you hold & release the disc with a hyzer angle, but not use a hyzer angle pull back & follow through? (ie: hold the disc with some hyzer angle, reach straight back, pull straight through, and finish straight across.) Or do you hold, release and follow through with a hyzer angle with an understable disc?

Flex shots:
Again, as I understand it, a flex shot is using an overstable disc that is released with an anhyzer angle, which makes the overstable disc overpower the anhyzer flight path to come back and finish to the left (RHBH thrower).

Q: Essentially the same question as the hyzer-flip. Do you use OAT to perform this shot correctly? Or do you use a pure throw to make the disc anhyzer and just put enough power behind it so the flight is long enough to give the overstable disc enough time to overpower the anhyzer flight path?


I have read everything I can find about these topics, but I just need some clarification on which is the correct way to throw them. If someone could point me to a video which demonstrates these throws in detail, I would appreciate it. I have seen the distance competition video where the guy in yellow is obviously throwing a hyzer-flip, but you can't really see how he throws it. I have also seen the Discraft video where they are throwing flex shots towards the uphill hole as well. That video does help, but it doesn't show enough slow motion to be much help.

So, if someone could describe in detail how they throw their hyzer-flip shots and flex shots, I would be most grateful.

Thanks again guys & gals and I look forward to reading your replies!

 

[skottyb]

all the hyzer flips I can throw require a really beat in disc.. kc pro teebirds & gazelles... so stable discs that are really understable due too there condition.. one of my favorite shots to throw..

 

[zensuit]

Flex is my favorite shot. I throw either a Surge SS, which is pretty much in the middle of overstable or an Avenger and just snap it hard with Anny. It does a beautiful mini S and ends up pretty much in the middle.

As for Hyzer Flex, try throwing a mid like a Meteor. I release pretty much like I'm throwing straight but with plenty of snap and a Hyzer angle. get much more than mid-range distance with that shot!

Z

 

[fireborne]

all the hyzer flips I can throw require a really beat in disc.. kc pro teebirds & gazelles... so stable discs that are really understable due too there condition.. one of my favorite shots to throw..

So if I understand you, using a naturally understable disc won't achieve the same flight path? It seems to me that an overstable disc that is beat enough to be understable would have a similar (though not exactly the same) flight path as an understable disc. Is this incorrect? Can you not throw a hyzer-flip with a rated understable disc?

 

[fireborne]

Flex is my favorite shot. I throw either a Surge SS, which is pretty much in the middle of overstable or an Avenger and just snap it hard with Anny. It does a beautiful mini S and ends up pretty much in the middle.

But when you say you throw with anny, do you mean just an anhyzer angle, or with an anhyzer reach back, pull through and follow through?

As for Hyzer Flex, try throwing a mid like a Meteor. I release pretty much like I'm throwing straight but with plenty of snap and a Hyzer angle. get much more than mid-range distance with that shot!

Z

This is how I've been throwing my hyzer flip shots, just holding the disc at a hyzer angle and reaching back, pulling through and following through flat and straight. I never see the disc "flip up to flat" but instead it just seems to come out straight, and fade back out to the left. I don't know if I'm doing it right, or not putting enough power behind it. Which is why I'm asking these questions.

Anyone else care to comment on how they throw these shots, what you method is and how the disc flies from the beginning all the way through to the end? I'd love to be able to pull these shots out when I need them, but I guess I need to know how to throw them first!

Thanks again, and keep the answers coming!

 

[Ryan P.]

to answer the original questions fireborne, i would say that you should never throw a shot with OAT. OAT kills distance like mongooses kill snakes. however, i have never seen an official answer to this question before. But from throwing both of these shots, I would say that you should throw a flex shot just like a regular anhyzer shot, but the disc's natural overstability will pull the flight path back to level, and then down to finish left (RHBH). and the same with a hyzer-flip. if you throw an understable disc just like a regular hyzer shot, then it should flip up totally by itself into a nice, straight (sometimes a beautifully S-curving) shot, without you throwing it any differently. if you have any more questions about it, just remember, OAT is bad. period.

 

[zensuit]

This is how I've been throwing my hyzer flip shots, just holding the disc at a hyzer angle and reaching back, pulling through and following through flat and straight. I never see the disc "flip up to flat" but instead it just seems to come out straight, and fade back out to the left. I don't know if I'm doing it right, or not putting enough power behind it. Which is why I'm asking these questions.


It does take a lot of snap and works best on a lower speed disc like a Discraft Xpress

 

[TalbotTrojan]

I would agree with those who have said that you should not throw these shots with OAT if you can help it. I just recently got a very overstable TeeRex and have really enjoyed learning the flex shot. As far as hyzer-flips go, everything I am doing is to get it out at the angle that I want. If you are having trouble getting the high speed turn probably means that you are not getting enough snap so I would try focusing on that. The Beato video is the best one that I have seen as far as that is concerned.

 

[skottyb]

So if I understand you, using a naturally understable disc won't achieve the same flight path? It seems to me that an overstable disc that is beat enough to be understable would have a similar (though not exactly the same) flight path as an understable disc. Is this incorrect? Can you not throw a hyzer-flip with a rated understable disc?

Sure you can, you must have misunderstood me, I said that's how "I" throw a hyzer flip.. old beatup plastic.. you could do this with a beat up disc of or an understable disc... I just like too see the disc go from a straight hyzer, to flip up, and then go anhyzer... killer distance for me.. and nice for those controlled wooded shots that i can't reach with my forehand... hope that helps the confusion..

 

[fireborne]

Thank you all for your input on this topic. It would seem that there isn't a general consensus about how to properly throw these shots, at least for the hyzer-flip.

The reason why I was asking if OAT had anything to do with the throw was because of the article Blake_T posted on www.discgolfreview.com under the articles section and topic of "Understanding Nose Angles and Trajectory". He states that you would use wrist roll over or under, depending on the shot, to achieve the desired flight. It is my understanding that wrist roll over or under would be a form of OAT. Is this a correct definition of one of the forms of OAT? Does anyone here agree that is how the throw should be executed? It seems that Blake knows a hell of a lot about the different ways to throw, so I'm taking his word at face value.

I have tried to throw an understable disc (a beat champion road runner, which when new is a -3 stability disc) on a hyzer-flip, by just holding the disc at a hyzer angle and releasing and following through straight. It seems to fly straight for a pretty decent distance for my level (around 200-250') with a slight fade to the left at the end (RHBH throw). If I release it with a hyzer angle (have been experimenting with different angles) with a low to high release at an angle, not just throwing straight, it just seems to fly hyzer and depending on the height it will flip back to the right at the end.

Same thing with flex shots. If I just hold the disc at an anhyzer angle and release it flat/straight, it does what I've read what a flex shot should. Maybe I just don't have enough power to make these discs fly like they should.

But if anyone can confirm/deny what I've posted about Blake's method in the article above, I'd certainly appreciate any insight you could offer!

Again, thanks to all who have replied & hope to continue to learn more about these shots!

</novel>

 

[Ryan P.]

as far as what blake said, wrist roll doesn't necessarily create OAT. OAT does come from wrist roll, as well as other things, but wrist roll doesn't necessarily cause OAT. You can tell if you have OAT if the disc flutters as it leaves. i've thrown shots with wrist roll and no OAT (although they were pretty lucky).

 

[zensuit]

The bad news is that you're correct, you don't have enough power yet.

The good news is that you will develop more power just by playing.

I agree with the above poster about OAT.

Z

 

[craigg]

You may be able to achieve the hyzer flip using OAT, but it's not a good way to do it. If you are not getting your disc to perform as you think it should - it's probably not unstable enough. Hyzer flip, and flex shots both require a clean release to yield optimum results. The flight characteristic you seek is a function of what the disc will do given a clean throw w/the proper amount of spin. If your Roadrunner isn't finishing right, try releasing it with a little less hyzer - or find a disc that's a little more beat.
Whoever said OAT kills distance was right on. OAT forces a disc to spend it's initial flight time correcting itself - which means any success you get will be moderate, and uncontrolled. Both the hyzer flip and flex shots are all about controlling the natural flight characteristics of the disc.

 

[garublador]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that OAT should never be used. It's necessary for shaping shots. Blake is talking about purposely imparting OAT to get the disc to perform as desired. Wrist roll causes OAT.

Whether or not it should be used depends on the shot. What's bad is when you can't control how much OAT you impart. That happens when you try to throw discs that are too fast and/or overstable for you to throw straight with a clean throw, but try to force them to fly straight anyway.

I do agree that the Roadrunner is too fast of a disc. Stable putters, stable mids and a driver like a Polaris LS, DX Ace or DX Cheetah will give you better results, will be easier to control and will help you learn faster than a fast, understable disc like the Roadrunner.

FWIW, distance throwers will many times purposely impart OAT on their distance throws to guarantee they get the flight they want. Hyzer flip throws will have roll over to make sure the disc turns after the apex and anhyzer throws will have roll under to make sure the disc comes out of the turn. The little bit of power lost is much more than offset by the improved line.

 

[dpennycuff]

why won't it work

Just like you, fireborne, I have not had much luck getting a Champion Roadrunner to perform a hyzer flip. The first thing I would like to tell you is that it takes a lot of power to perform a hyzer flip (as you get more power this will change), with a distance driver. My average drives are in the 320 foot range and I have to put a lot behind my disc to perform a hyzer flip. The second thing I want to tell you is that there are 3 shots you can perform from a hyzer flip.

The first type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that always turns right for you (i.e. a discraft meteor or xtreme, an innova monarch or roadrunner), and throw it normally but with the disc slightly tilted at a hyzer angle. The disc will fly straight for a long period of time before turning right. This is useful if your shot needs to make it through an alley way before heading to the right. I typically use a discraft meteor or innova leopard for these shots.

The second type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that likes to turn right when thrown really hard, and throw it normally but with more of a hyzer angle than the first type of shot. If done right, this will almost completely cancell out the "rightness" of the disc and give you a very straight shot, with either a slight drift to the left or right at the end. This is what is happening with your roadrunner when it goes very straight.

The third type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that likes to turn right when thrown really hard, and throw it like you would a sweeping hyzer shot (i.e. with a lot of hyzer angle and your arm releasing on an upward trajectory). This will cause the disc to come out heading to the left, then the "rightness" of the disc will cause it to bend straight, if not slightly to the right, before finally fading back to the left. The turning in the middle of the disc's flight allows the disc to stay in the air for a longer period of time, which translates into big distance. I use either a pro leopard or really beat in pro wraith for this shot, and I use it on a 340 foot dogleg left hole at one of the local courses, and I usually land within a 30 foot circle of the basket. Just be warned that this type of shot takes a lot of power and room to make it work.

If you really want to add the hyzer flip shot to your bag. I would go out and get a pro leopard, and just start experimenting with it. As long as you have the power to make your roadrunner go to the right, then you will be able to make the leopard go to the right. Because it is a slower disc it will be easier to "turn" it, so it lowers the power requirements for hyzer flip shots with it. Granted, it won't have the distance that a hyzer flip shot made with a faster driver would, but you have to work up to those discs. Once your drives start to go beyond the 300 foot mark, you will begin to appreciate discs like the leopard for those shorter shots that your drivers are just too long for. So, even if you move past the leopard as your hyzer flip disc, it will still be very usefull to you.

 

[garublador]

The first type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that always turns right for you (i.e. a discraft meteor or xtreme, an innova monarch or roadrunner),

You must have had one f'd up Xtreme. It's known as one of the most overstable molds ever.

 

[zensuit]

You must have had one f'd up Xtreme. It's known as one of the most overstable molds ever.

Thanks for this. I was thinking the same thing!

 

[dpennycuff]

Xtreme???

The discraft Xtreme is rated as -1 stability on both the disc and discraft's webpage, which means that it is very understable. Which means that for me (a right hand back hand thrower), it tends to go to the right.

 

[garublador]

The discraft Xtreme is rated as -1 stability on both the disc and discraft's webpage, which means that it is very understable. Which means that for me (a right hand back hand thrower), it tends to go to the right.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Xpress? The Xtreme has been discontinued and isn't even on the Discraft site anymore.

 

[Ryan P.]

hey garublador, for what shots would you purposely put OAT into your throw? I've never understood using OAT, because it seems that I can get most any like without using it, and using it makes the throw more unpredictable.