Questions on hyzer-flip and flext shots

[dpennycuff]

my mistake

It is the xpress, since I picked it up only a couple of months ago. My mistake, there is no excuss for forgetting the correct name. I would look for sure, but it is loaned out to a beginner buddy of mine for his main driver.

 

[garublador]

hey garublador, for what shots would you purposely put OAT into your throw? I've never understood using OAT, because it seems that I can get most any like without using it, and using it makes the throw more unpredictable.

I can't think of a less smart-alek way to put it, but you put OAT on a drive any time you want a flight that you wouldn't get if you didn't put OAT on the disc. Being able to control how much OAT is imparted allows you to control if, when and by how much a disc turns over. Being able to have one disc that can turn over at 200', 250' or 300' depending on how much roll over you use (usually in the form of finishing on a different plane than the throw) is super useful. Need the same flight with a fade? Throw a less beat version of the disc with less hyzer angle. Need a sweeping hyzer that doesn't bite into the hyzer at the end? Throw a beat disc with some roll under. Being able to control OAT like this allows you to throw a limitless number of lines with one mold in a couple stages of beatness rather than requring a limitless number of molds all being thrown the same way.

 

[craigg]

I think you don't really understand what OAT is Garublador.
Off Axis Torque by nature causes a disc to flutter out of the hand.
There is a difference between forcing a disc to turn in different ways based on angle of release, and Off Axis Torque.
The descriptions of throws you are giving have everything to do with mung (or the angle of the nose of the disc in relation to the ground + the application of spin), and nothing to do with Off Axis Torque.
OAT (again by nature) is not something you can really control. It is an indicator of poor form and an "unclean" or off axis release.

 

[garublador]

I think you don't really understand what OAT is Garublador.
Off Axis Torque by nature causes a disc to flutter out of the hand.
There is a difference between forcing a disc to turn in different ways based on angle of release, and Off Axis Torque.
The descriptions of throws you are giving have everything to do with mung (or the angle of the nose of the disc in relation to the ground + the application of spin), and nothing to do with Off Axis Torque.
OAT (again by nature) is not something you can really control. It is an indicator of poor form and an "unclean" or off axis release.

While changing the attitude of the disc is another way to control the disc:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml

OAT is definitely another way to control your shots, too. OAT does cause flutter, but it requires a lot of it to get that flutter. My understanding is that the flutter is the OAT "fighting" with the angular momentum of the spinning disc. I'm talking about much less OAT, enough to affect the flight of the disc without causing that flutter. OAT can be caused by grip problems at the release, but that's not the source of the controlled OAT I'm talking about. You're basically "pushing" (torque is a force) the disc in the hyzer or anhzyer direction at the hit to get a more or less overstable flight.

 

[volmed10]

Another question about throwing a drive with "hyzer".

If I am throwing a regular RHBH drive and I want to have the disc release with a hyzer angle, do I need to adjust my grip to rotate the wing down, or rotate at my wrist so that the wing has a hyzer angle.

If I need to adjust my grip, what modifications do I need to make?

Thanks in advance.

 

[garublador]

You shouldn't need to adjust your grip to get different hyzer angles. You may need to adjust your wrist orientation to change the attitude of the disc depending on the shot you want to make, though. Here's an article that talks about that some:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml

Something else that will help understand how to achieve different angles is telegraphing your throw. Here's an article about that:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/telegraphing.shtml

 

[craigg]

While changing the attitude of the disc is another way to control the disc:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml

OAT is definitely another way to control your shots, too. OAT does cause flutter, but it requires a lot of it to get that flutter. My understanding is that the flutter is the OAT "fighting" with the angular momentum of the spinning disc. I'm talking about much less OAT, enough to affect the flight of the disc without causing that flutter. OAT can be caused by grip problems at the release, but that's not the source of the controlled OAT I'm talking about. You're basically "pushing" (torque is a force) the disc in the hyzer or anhzyer direction at the hit to get a more or less overstable flight.

It doesn't take much Off Axis Torque at all to cause flutter - I think this is a misconception on your part. Flutter is caused by the application of torque at an angle other than parallel to the plane of the flight plate. This is most frequently the result of wrist roll during or just before the "hit" or release point. It is not uncommon to see players that are trying to develop arm speed or power go through a period where they equate that wrist roll movement to one or both - and their results are not very good. It's not until they learn to apply that force cleanly and on axis - that they start to get better distance results, and a better understanding of a discs true flight characteristics.

While wrist roll can be utilized to adjust release angle, and yield differing flight patterns, that is not the same as OAT. You can adjust those angles in your motion and still release the disc cleanly - applying all the force in a gyroscopic/on axis fashion. Any off axis torque will cause your disc to flutter - and it will then spend some portion of its flight - fighting its way back to a gyroscopic equilibrium. Pretending that you can develop any sort of control over that is just that......pretending

 

[garublador]

Why can't you control OAT? It's just another force on the disc.

If you don't belive me, how about I reference Blake T:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11578&p=157944&hilit=oat#p157944
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11123&p=151588&hilit=oat#p151588
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&sid=0365a3ea0e876670202f8a57d26dedab#p132895
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&sid=35f67778aac3fb1503108a2f5a3e3630#p129632
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9448&p=128691&hilit=oat#p128691
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9496&p=126950&hilit=oat#p126950

Flutter is caused by OAT, but you don't always get flutter with OAT. I agree with most of what you're saying, except that it's very possible and very useful to learn to control it.

 

[craigg]

There are so many dimensions to controlling every aspect of disc flght, adding OAT as a controllable dimension is both unnecessary and unpredictable. The correction period of the flight pattern is affected by wind, release angle, nose angle, etc. There's simply no useful or consistent way to apply it. The references I see in some of the links you posted by Blake T are similar to the way you referenced it - and it seems as if its just a more convenient explanation for the use of wrist roll (not necessarily a more correct one). I just don't find it plausible.

I'll take my 30 years of experience, and ~ half a million throws over Blake T's prolific writing. You believe what you want.

 

[craigg]

Having now gone through ALL your post references, it's apparent why it's so confusing. Blake T is just plain wrong in his explanation of the use of OAT. The subtleties he is trying to describe are absolutely NOT Off Axis Torque. You don't control the nose angle by applying Off Axis Torque, you SACRIFICE IT!!!
The wrist roll over, roll under stuff he references are confusing enough by themselves - trying to call them varying forms of Off Axis Torque just increases that confusion.

So while I appreciate the amount of time that Blake has put into his teaching of various throwing techniques, I think he missed the mark on this one.

OAT is or should be a relatively simple concept. The disc is a (largely) planar object. To make it fly, you apply torque to the edge of that plane (the rim). That torque is applied parallel to the plane of the flight plate, and perpendicular to the axis of rotation. ANY torque that is applied off axis, or off plane, will result in flutter - it's really just that simple. That flutter will compromise control, distance, and accuracy, and is something to be avoided if you have any interest in having any of those qualities in the flight of your disc.
Learning varying techniques for angle of release that effect a discs flight patterns are most successful when Off Axis Torque is left out of the equation.

 

[garublador]

I'll take my 30 years of experience, and ~ half a million throws over Blake T's prolific writing. You believe what you want.

I'll take the advice of guys like Dave Dunipace, Dave McCormack, Avery Jenkins, Jon Drummond, Timmy Gill, Lightning Lyle (a Twin Cities local with a similar amount of experience as yourself) among others over one guy's contradictory advice any day. That's where Blake got his information, he didn't make it up himself. Check out the videos here:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

and think about how many of those people he got to talk to when making the videos.

Here's an article about distance throwing (which you claim OAT is not a part of) where he spoke with Avery Jenkins and Jon Drummond:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancelines.shtml

I supppose they don't know what they're taking about, either?

That's one heck of a bibliography.

I'd suggest anyone reading these posts to believe whomever they want as well.

I understand we're both saying roll over and under can be used to shape a disc's flight, and whether or not it's OAT is largely irrelevant when it comes to actually playing, but it is incorrect to say OAT can not be controlled or used to shape flights. In fact, wrist extension can cause OAT that actually forces the nose down more. That's how guys (like Steve Brinster, IIRC) can use grips where the disc does not have a nose down orientaion, but they can get a nose down flight. I really don't understand what seems impossible about using a force to control how a disc flies.

 

[craigg]

I'll take the advice of guys like Dave Dunipace, Dave McCormack, Avery Jenkins, Jon Drummond, Timmy Gill, Lightning Lyle (a Twin Cities local with a similar amount of experience as yourself) among others over one guy's contradictory advice any day. That's where Blake got his information, he didn't make it up himself. Check out the videos here:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

and think about how many of those people he got to talk to when making the videos.

Here's an article about distance throwing (which you claim OAT is not a part of) where he spoke with Avery Jenkins and Jon Drummond:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancelines.shtml

I supppose they don't know what they're taking about, either?

That's one heck of a bibliography.

I'd suggest anyone reading these posts to believe whomever they want as well.

I understand we're both saying roll over and under can be used to shape a disc's flight, and whether or not it's OAT is largely irrelevant when it comes to actually playing, but it is incorrect to say OAT can not be controlled or used to shape flights. In fact, wrist extension can cause OAT that actually forces the nose down more. That's how guys (like Steve Brinster, IIRC) can use grips where the disc does not have a nose down orientaion, but they can get a nose down flight. I really don't understand what seems impossible about using a force to control how a disc flies.

I didn't see Avery or Jon say anything about Off Axis Torque in that interview. They were talking about the flight characteristics of the various discs they use for distance. They are talking about forcing a disc to go through its natural range of motion based on the flight characteristics - which are tied to the shape of the disc and the distribution of mass around the rim. They didn't mention OAT once that I saw (granted I went through it sort of quickly).

So.......... if you want to think I'm just some random guy spouting off - that's ok too. But I was throwing over 500' distance shots when Avery was in diapers dude. Your best bet in learning control over golf plastic is to learn to throw clean, and teach yourself the true charcteristics of the discs you have chosen to throw. Whether OAT is a usable method or not is pretty much irelevant until you have a very advanced skill set. As such - it's something that should be discouraged when teaching new players. I don't think Blake, Dave D, Avery, Jon, or Timmy G would disagree with that.

 

[biscoe]

avery was probably only throwing 450 or so when in diapers

craig knows as much about getting a disc to fly in a variety of different ways as anyone i have seen in my 15 years or so of experience.

 

[garublador]

craig knows as much about getting a disc to fly in a variety of different ways as anyone i have seen in my 15 years or so of experience.

I'm not doubting that, but I do doubt his grasp on the physics behind it.

As for the interviews, I don't think they were completely transcribed, but I could be wrong. Blake lives in MPLS and was (I don't know if he is now) active in the Sundog League, so he's had the chance to spend time with guys like Jon Drummond and Timmy Gill on more than a really short interview basis.

My point is he's talked with several big guns and many people with lots and lots of experience. If he were coming to the wrong conclusion you'd think they would have pointed it out by now.

 

[craigg]

I'm not doubting that, but I do doubt his grasp on the physics behind it.

The main reason I post on this board is to share my experience with those who have less of it. Not sure what your experience level is, based on your profile it's hard to tell. It appears though, as if you rely a lot on what other people have written and said, and less so on your own experience.

Look again at the interview on distance you posted. Take away your pre conceptions on OAT, and look at what Avery and Jon are describing. They are describing facets of a flight pattern. Those facets are functions of the type of discs they are using (less stable for hyzer flip shots, more over stable for anhyzer shots) - and they describe how to best take advantage of those facets using height, speed and wind factors. Any implications of the use of Off Axis Torque - are ones you put there.

I cut my teeth on this game playing with the likes of Climo, Stokely, Valencia, Brooks, Greenwell, Voakes, Tannock, Schack, Leyva, Ahart, Wisecup, etc etc. I think I might have a grasp on the physics - just maybe

 

[zensuit]

What's up with all the antler bashing around here? I shot 6 under the other day on a technical course by throwing the disc the way I visualized the shot.

Never once even thought about OAT, etc...

Maybe all you guys are right and we are all still going to get beat by some noob with the natural snap needed to throw 500 feet at the age of 17!

Z

 

[DRKPRNC]

I myself have only been playing with the hyzer-flip for a few days. I've been holding somewhat of a hyzer angly from start to finish, which works great with my Archangel and Roadrunner. My Sidewinder on the other hand, will flatten out when I do this and then fade to the left without really heading to the right.

So, I've been just using a three finger grip and then pulling straight back and at the moment I snap my wrist I try to let the disc sag a bit. This has helped a great deal with the Sidewinder hyzer-flip, for me. For only being a 165g Champion Sidewinder in great condition, I didn't expect to have to do this. If I turn it anhyzer style at the snap, and only use two or three fingers, it will go right and stay right until it fades. I'm RHBH btw.

I'm learning this too Fireborne, so good luck!

 

[fireborne]

Been a while since I replied to my own topic, so shame on me...

So I realized I made a mistake in my earlier posts about which disc I was throwing. It was not a Roadrunner, but in fact a Sidewinder. The speed of the disc is the same, but the stability (-4 vs -3) was different.

In the mean time I did go pick up a DX Cheetah and it is certainly easier for me to turn over. Don't get me wrong, when I throw the Sidewinder flat, it most certainly turns right for me (RHBH). But I can throw the Cheetah with a hyzer angle, and either release flat or release with hyzer and they both wind up going to the right, just at different points in the flight. I'm guessing this is what should be happening.

I do have to put a LOT of hyzer on the Cheetah to get it to fade back to the left, but this usually winds up getting rather high up in the air and I'm pretty sure this is due to a nose flat or nose up orientation.

Which brings me to my next question(s)...

When YOU throw a hyzer flip, how high does the disc fly and what kind of distance do you get out of it? I realize there will be a number of different answers, but I'm looking for all of them, so I can get an idea of the height to distance ratio for a hyzer flip. On some courses you have no ceiling to speak of and can launch it as high as you need. On others, the trees will limit how high you can put it, and I'm wondering if there is a significant decrease in the distance you can get because of this.

On the flip side (pun intended), the flex shots I've been throwing have been getting further and further out. However, I am experiencing a problem in that some times when I don't get enough height or distance, the disc will drop out of the air on an anhyzer angle and hit the ground with nose down, and just start to roll back and to the left, and usually will start to come back towards me. Is this just a symptom of not getting enough height on the throw, or using too much of an anhyzer angle? If anyone could give me some suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice everyone so freely offers here, and I look forward to getting more feedback from anyone who would care to share it!

 

[tamahawk]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am merely a recreational player. I don't know much about OAT and all of that stuff, but I will share my experiences with the hyzer-flips and flex shots, and you can take it for what it's worth.

When YOU throw a hyzer flip, how high does the disc fly and what kind of distance do you get out of it?

I have just started throwing this shot in the last couple of months. I use the RoadRunner for this type of shot, but am trying to experiment with a few others as well. Depending on how much hyzer angle the disc is released with, it will either flip flat or flip up and actually turn over (RHBH). I only throw around 280-300ft, and I get the same amount of distance out of this shot as a standard flex shot. Spin seems to be the key factor in me being able to flip the disc. When I get a good, clean release, the disc does what it is suppose to do.

On the flip side (pun intended), the flex shots I've been throwing have been getting further and further out. However, I am experiencing a problem in that some times when I don't get enough height or distance, the disc will drop out of the air on an anhyzer angle and hit the ground with nose down, and just start to roll back and to the left, and usually will start to come back towards me. Is this just a symptom of not getting enough height on the throw, or using too much of an anhyzer angle?

This is my favorite type of shot. I definitely get more distance throwing a flex shot than a flat, hyzer type throw. I experience similar issues as mentioned above. For me, it's like this. If I really want to put some anhyzer on the disc, then I have to throw with a higher trajectory in order to give the disc enough time to flatten out and come back. If I throw to low, the disc never has a chance. So the more you turn it over, the more room the disc needs to finish it's flight path.

There is a Hole at my local course (#3, Freeman Lake) that requires a flex shot, but it has a low canopy. I really struggle with this hole to get the right amont of turnover to hit my line without the disc turning into the ground and rolling off into the woods on the left. I've recently started trying the hyzer flip, and seems to work better, but with the low canopy, it is difficult to pull this shot off.

 

[BrotherDave]

When YOU throw a hyzer flip, how high does the disc fly and what kind of distance do you get out of it? I realize there will be a number of different answers, but I'm looking for all of them, so I can get an idea of the height to distance ratio for a hyzer flip. On some courses you have no ceiling to speak of and can launch it as high as you need. On others, the trees will limit how high you can put it, and I'm wondering if there is a significant decrease in the distance you can get because of this.

From what I understand, the older discs will require more height to get out there whereas the newer distance drivers don't need as much. I usually flip a champ Valk (175) and it usually climbs no higher than 25-30 ft and I generally get 325-350 ft out of it. Old thread but what the hell, it is an excuse to pad my post count.