Rules Changes for 2018

[_MTL_]

An interesting point. The FIFA rules provide for intent. In fact there are three levels, accident, low intent, intent to harm. That isn't how it's written but how it plays out. But even with those distinctions, only accident and intent to harm are taken seriously. If you reach for the ball and foul accidentally, you get called. If you block a player or grab him, typically it's given a pass.

Strange.

Apples and oranges, IMHO. Sports that have some sort of physical contact have to control it at some point. BAsketball does it Flagrant fouls and different levels of them.

 

[teemkey]

The book is 15 pages long, and the rule numbers are listed next to the page numbers at the bottom of every page. It's not gonna be that hard to find what you're looking for.

Of course look ups can be done. However, comparing the method to the current way of looking up a definition, it involves two searches vs one, and uses rule number rather than page number -- a method we are trained in from grade 1 (or earlier).

At least the term being defined is in bold. That will help. However it may be in the context of another rule, and that could complicate interpretation.

I'd rather see the definitions all in one section (as it is now) and a traditional index that shows each page number where the term appears, including the Q & A section.

 

[JC17393]

Hell yeah. I go out to a bar for lunch, takes too damn long for my burger, I know I'm bottom card of advanced so I order another beer, I show up at the course just as I hear "two minutes" Fk - bottom card of advanced starts way the F out there. Lead card of open starts here on hole one, hey guys, I guess I'm playing with you today. 2 throw penalty vs par plus 4.

Nope.

QA-MIS-8
I got to the course late, after the two-minute warning, and found out I had been assigned to hole 12, which is all the way on the other side of the park. There's no way I could get there in time, so I was looking at getting par plus four for missing the hole. Then I noticed that hole 3, which is close, only had a threesome. If I join them, I get a two-throw penalty for starting on the wrong hole and/or in the wrong group, saving two strokes. Clever, right?

Not so much. Intentionally misplaying a hole to your advantage can get you DQ'ed. The rules about starting on the wrong hole or in the wrong group are intended to address inadvertent mistakes. Deliberately starting in the wrong group to avoid a greater penalty puts you at risk of a greater penalty, including DQ. In this case, the TD could reasonably assess both penalties: par plus four on your first hole (for being late), and two penalty throws for starting on the wrong hole.​

 

[_MTL_]

People quickly forget that intentionally breaking a rule is a DQ. In fact, this is a great example of the big mistake people are making on these discussions; they are simply looking at just the updates section of the rule book. The other 95% of it still there and still is applicable. The updates section is only a quick synopsis of changes you will see throughout it.

 

[DG_player]

The clarification from the RC that is if you foot fault when going OB: one throw penalty, take lie according to the OB rules.

Am I the only one that finds it a little bizarre that you can commit multiple rule violations and only be penalized for one of them?

 

[sidewinder22]

Am I the only one that finds it a little bizarre that you can commit multiple rule violations and only be penalized for one of them?

Going OB is not a rule violation.

 

[hellbound]

Personally I don't think the rule changes are all that bad. Reading the book and having played for a number of years. Do I agree with everything. Yes and No.

OB rules.

Love the idea of lateral OB option. Pace of play will def speed up on some longer holes. See use of this not very often but could come in handy on longer holes that are tricky for AM arms but pro's get up and down easily.

The new mark and move line of play option might be the only thing I don't see we needed and would love to hear where the Board came up with this. Guessing it has to stem from being stuck on a tree when your already taking a stroke?

Big thing is I would bet that hazzard play is going to become the norm and miss used on smaller events.

Foot Faults.
This ones kind of two fold. First it doesn't get called all that often but if i caught it right I watched one pro call a foot fault after another player went ob on the same drive trying to save him a stroke. Right or wrong think that when most people call it. Events I have been to and even helped at people adhere to the did they try to hit there mark? Does that couple of inches make that much of a difference? So opening up the box some seems right. Been wanting something that grows tighter as you move up the ranks.

Are you going to see people taking cheap shots with ob and foot faults in the AM side. Sure, just remember to save the stroke and abandon the throw. I do agree with MTL that it should have been some kind of re throw with a stroke.

2 stroke vs par +4 isn't going to be that big of a deal. Ive seen people get onto the wrong card and td shuffle assignment. Before you for the most part got away with not double checking the hole start and could play along with the card. Now your two stroked. If i was a td of an event and you tried to jump on the wrong card by a more then a hole max last min (Checking with people you played with) easy DQ.


Biggest one i see people trying to cheat will be the under 5m people saying i can practice putt to my bag. Even if the rules state what your more or less allowed to do.

We have around 11 weeks before all the rules go into effect. Hopefully the PDGA will do some kind of weekly Rules school just working on one new ruling a week to let people ask questions and then post answers and straighten out most of the cheats people are claiming will happen.

 

[JC17393]

Despite the fact that intentionally starting with the wrong group is discouraged by the threat of DQ, I still am not a fan of the wrong group misplay rule. As evidenced here, it does put the idea in players' heads to jump into a random nearby group for 2 penalty throws rather than trek to their assigned group and risk par + 4 penalties if they're late. Prior to this, there was no real penalty for starting with the wrong group, but it also was never really a problem (to my knowledge). No one ever considered jumping in with the group on hole 1 because they didn't feel like trekking out to their assigned hole (late or not). They just respected the hole assignments as they were, and hustled to their hole if they had to hustle.

A curious side effect of this penalty might be more groups playing as a two-some if their third fails to show up at all. In the past, a common solution for those two players was to split up and join nearby groups (like one goes forward a hole and one goes backward). Now if they do that, do they start their rounds with a two-throw penalty? Take par+4 for their correct starting hole (rather than playing it with their new group)? DQ for intentionally starting elsewhere? Probably a minor thing, but something that wasn't a factor before.

 

[sidewinder22]

Despite the fact that intentionally starting with the wrong group is discouraged by the threat of DQ, I still am not a fan of the wrong group misplay rule. As evidenced here, it does put the idea in players' heads to jump into a random nearby group for 2 penalty throws rather than trek to their assigned group and risk par + 4 penalties if they're late. Prior to this, there was no real penalty for starting with the wrong group, but it also was never really a problem (to my knowledge). No one ever considered jumping in with the group on hole 1 because they didn't feel like trekking out to their assigned hole (late or not). They just respected the hole assignments as they were, and hustled to their hole if they had to hustle.

That would have been a misplay penalty.

A curious side effect of this penalty might be more groups playing as a two-some if their third fails to show up at all. In the past, a common solution for those two players was to split up and join nearby groups (like one goes forward a hole and one goes backward). Now if they do that, do they start their rounds with a two-throw penalty? Take par+4 for their correct starting hole (rather than playing it with their new group)? DQ for intentionally starting elsewhere? Probably a minor thing, but something that wasn't a factor before.

You can not play in a two-some. Those two are going to end up in a five-some or six-some.

 

[JC17393]

That would have been a misplay penalty.

Under current rules? Citation please.

You can not play in a two-some. Those two are going to end up in a five-some or six-some.

You can't? What's the penalty for doing so?

TDs aren't supposed to put groups on the course as two-somes without an official...that much is proscribed in the Competition Manual. But there is nothing stopping a group that becomes a two-some due to a no-show or mid-round withdrawal from playing the round as a two-some. No rule, no penalty, no nothing.

It's a bad idea because of the potential for conflict when it comes to making rulings, and players are generally pretty good about avoiding it if they can (by joining another group), but there's nothing compelling them to not play in a two-some.

 

[DG_player]

Going OB is not a rule violation.

I'll rephrase: Am I the only one who finds it odd you can commit multiple penalties on a throw and only be penalized for one of them?

 

[JC17393]

I'll rephrase: Am I the only one who finds it odd you can commit multiple penalties on a throw and only be penalized for one of them?

What I find odd in such a scenario is that the player is penalized for the first infraction to occur, but proceeds according to what is proscribed in the rules regarding the second infraction.

This is by far the worst of the rules changes (in fact, I have no real objections to any of the other changes except the definition of the lie). The throw resulting from a stance violation should not stand. It should be re-thrown, period. It was always such a simple concept to explain to people...stance violation = re-throw. Now it's complicated by the inevitable "what-ifs" of dealing with where the disc landed. What if it is OB? What if it is lost? What if it misses a mando? What if it goes in the basket?

I guess we now have a scenario in which a player can card a circle-2 or penalty-2. Does that player win the ace pot for that throw?

 

[teemkey]

That would have been a misplay penalty.


You can not play in a two-some. Those two are going to end up in a five-some or six-some.

Under current rules? Citation please.

You can't? What's the penalty for doing so?

TDs aren't supposed to put groups on the course as two-somes without an official...that much is proscribed in the Competition Manual. But there is nothing stopping a group that becomes a two-some due to a no-show or mid-round withdrawal from playing the round as a two-some. No rule, no penalty, no nothing.

It's a bad idea because of the potential for conflict when it comes to making rulings, and players are generally pretty good about avoiding it if they can (by joining another group), but there's nothing compelling them to not play in a two-some.

Well, you know, it's another one of those "shall not" rules.

To promote fairness, groups shall not consist of fewer than three players, except under extenuating circumstances, as deemed necessary by the Tournament Director. In cases where fewer than three players are required to play together, a designated tournament official must accompany the group and
may play as long as that does not interfere with the competing players.

As it reads, TD permission is needed to play as a twosome, and if permission is given an official must accompany the twosome.

It's not clear that there's a penalty, but it is clear it is only acceptable under certain conditions. As a player, I'm definitely going to let other groups play through until I can get the TD's remedy for the situation.

The situation could be complicated if one of the absent players shows up before the TD. No one has teed off, so the 30 second wait needed for Par+4 has not occurred.

 

[sidewinder22]

Under current rules? Citation please.

Not sure why it would be any different for a group vs a single person:

QA 23: Starting on the Wrong Hole
Q:
My group started on the wrong hole. What should we do?

A:
For each player, it depends on how many throws were made. If only one throw was made, there is a one-throw penalty and the player picks up and goes to the correct hole. If two or more throws were made, the player finishes the hole and takes a two-throw penalty. Applicable Rules: 803.03 Misplay.

You can't? What's the penalty for doing so?

TDs aren't supposed to put groups on the course as two-somes without an official...that much is proscribed in the Competition Manual. But there is nothing stopping a group that becomes a two-some due to a no-show or mid-round withdrawal from playing the round as a two-some. No rule, no penalty, no nothing.

It's a bad idea because of the potential for conflict when it comes to making rulings, and players are generally pretty good about avoiding it if they can (by joining another group), but there's nothing compelling them to not play in a two-some.

The TD could DQ them.

 

[sidewinder22]

Well, you know, it's another one of those "shall not" rules.

"Shall not" only has one meaning, as "must not" and "may not" mean the same thing in the negative form. "Shall" by itself however has two different meanings, as "must" and "may" are different in the positive form.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'll rephrase: Am I the only one who finds it odd you can commit multiple penalties on a throw and only be penalized for one of them?

Probably, otherwise it's double jeopardy. The existing rule is the same penalty-wise...

801.01 Application of the Rules

H. A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess we now have a scenario in which a player can card a circle-2 or penalty-2. Does that player win the ace pot for that throw?

No, it's a 2 on the scorecard.

 

[kerplunk]

I'll rephrase: Am I the only one who finds it odd you can commit multiple penalties on a throw and only be penalized for one of them?

If I'm not mistaken, this rule helps with granularity, and is actually not new.

Many of the new rule changes also seem to have the intent of granularity. This could almost be ruled the Chuck K. rules revision. I like how you got them in there without a lot of hullabaloo Chuck, well played.

I realized this may come off as negative, I didn't mean it that way. Through much internets, ck mostly convinced me of the value of granularity.

 

[sidewinder22]

TDs aren't supposed to put groups on the course as two-somes without an official...that much is proscribed in the Competition Manual. But there is nothing stopping a group that becomes a two-some due to a no-show or mid-round withdrawal from playing the round as a two-some. No rule, no penalty, no nothing.

Re-read...

D. To promote fairness, groups shall not be less than three players, except under extenuating circumstances, as deemed necessary by the Tournament Director. In cases where fewer than three players are required to play together, an official is required to accompany the group and may play as long as this does not interfere with the competing players.

Part D says nothing about the TD putting groups on the course. There is no specified time, so this applies at all times throughout the round... as deemed necessary by TD.

B. All players must abide by the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf and the PDGA Competition Manual.

If the dude doesn't abide by the Rules and the Competition Manual, then the dude can be subjected to DQ.

 

[DG_player]

Probably, otherwise it's double jeopardy. The existing rule is the same penalty-wise...

801.01 Application of the Rules

H. A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.

It's odd in the sense that in certain situations a foot fault in penalized, and in other situations (compounding penalties) it is not.

It just feels unfair that 2 players could have the same number of foot faults and OBs, and one ends up with more penalty strokes simply because their violations happened to occur on the same throw.