ManU
* Ace Member *
please do
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
The "Incomplete" Secret Technique
- Thread starter Blake_T1
- Start date
JR
* Ace Member *
Bradley Walker said:
WOOT!!!
bcsst26
Birdie Member
Bradley Walker said:
That would be sweet.
cfair
* Ace Member *
yes mr farting explosion!
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
I'm surprised there aren't more people sharing experiences with using these techniques. the season is winding down and they are fairly simple...
i'm having success with the drills.
i've coupled them with the towel drill and i'm now snapping the towel extremely hard. the towel becomes very heavy and at the hit cracks like a whip. i cannot replicate the extreme crack every time, but i'm working on it. should i be able to perform this every time or is the towel not able to be consistent enough to provide this audio feedback?
before being able to crack the towel i was hitting 440-450ft on my best throws with destroyers. i now believe if i can translate this new found wrist activation into my discs i will be on another level. this loud towel cracking feels like snap senior!
i've coupled them with the towel drill and i'm now snapping the towel extremely hard. the towel becomes very heavy and at the hit cracks like a whip. i cannot replicate the extreme crack every time, but i'm working on it. should i be able to perform this every time or is the towel not able to be consistent enough to provide this audio feedback?
before being able to crack the towel i was hitting 440-450ft on my best throws with destroyers. i now believe if i can translate this new found wrist activation into my discs i will be on another level. this loud towel cracking feels like snap senior!
These drills to teach a sidearm are for real. It taught me a easy and usable sidearm within just a few minutes of doing the hammer pounds with both the fake grip and real grip. I was also able to get a guy who was playing for his first time who was struggling with pretty much everything (who doesn't first go round). I was able to get him thrwoing one about 200 ft in literally about 5 min. The right there is impressive enough.
Now for the backhand part of these drills. Going into these I was throwing things like XL's and JLS's in and around 350 (some farther some shorter). After doing these hammer pounds and working with it I have only been able to gain probably bout 15-20 ft. I must be doing something wrong still but I just can't quite figure it out. The one thing the backhand hammer did do though was teach me how to hit my lines at will. That had been a huge plus to my game and I can know pretty much hit any line I am trying to. That has helped lower my scores dramatically.
Random question though about these drills and driving in general. I have tried and tried many grips and nothing really feels comfy or very strong. I can tell that my throws are dominated by velocity and no snap. So my question is how much distance can a bad grip can withhold you back from? I really feel that my grip is withholding me from distance but maybe I am just trying to put to much blame on that one part of my drive.
Now for the backhand part of these drills. Going into these I was throwing things like XL's and JLS's in and around 350 (some farther some shorter). After doing these hammer pounds and working with it I have only been able to gain probably bout 15-20 ft. I must be doing something wrong still but I just can't quite figure it out. The one thing the backhand hammer did do though was teach me how to hit my lines at will. That had been a huge plus to my game and I can know pretty much hit any line I am trying to. That has helped lower my scores dramatically.
Random question though about these drills and driving in general. I have tried and tried many grips and nothing really feels comfy or very strong. I can tell that my throws are dominated by velocity and no snap. So my question is how much distance can a bad grip can withhold you back from? I really feel that my grip is withholding me from distance but maybe I am just trying to put to much blame on that one part of my drive.
I've messed with the drills and it seems like I'm doing them right, but to be honest I haven't been able to notice the special feeling that the drills are supposed to teach. So, I'm stuck at the beginning, basically. I can whip the disc back and forth all I want -- it's fast and smooth, and my hand is "one" with the disc, with no slip... no tape required either. But it doesn't really feel any different than my regular old throwing motions, so there isn't much to incorporate back into my throw -- iow all the stuff about "just do what makes that feeling stronger" is just as mysterious as it ever was.
E.g. you know how you "can't" pound the hammer when the pull is too far from your body? Well I'm not feeling any difference between a close pull and a far pull, so I'm not getting the feedback loop that reinforces keeping it close. I keep it close because I know I'm supposed to, not because it makes the hammer-pound feel better.
I guess my throw has more wrist extension than before but I'm not sure I've seen any difference in terms of how the discs fly.
E.g. you know how you "can't" pound the hammer when the pull is too far from your body? Well I'm not feeling any difference between a close pull and a far pull, so I'm not getting the feedback loop that reinforces keeping it close. I keep it close because I know I'm supposed to, not because it makes the hammer-pound feel better.
I guess my throw has more wrist extension than before but I'm not sure I've seen any difference in terms of how the discs fly.
DiscJay
Bogey Member
While I cannot do the drills with the false grip, the theory behind the drills has helped my forehand tremendously. I still wouldn't say I have a great forehand but I am much more accurate and I am not turning and burning all my forehands like before.
I'm not sure the drills have helped my backhand in distance but I'm still working on it. Part of my problem is that when I do the wrist extension, my hand ends up coming up rather than staying down in the "handshake" position and I don't get nose down.
Edit: After reading Mark's post above me I think he summed up my problems with the drills for backhand. I'll keep working on it until I get it.
I'm not sure the drills have helped my backhand in distance but I'm still working on it. Part of my problem is that when I do the wrist extension, my hand ends up coming up rather than staying down in the "handshake" position and I don't get nose down.
Edit: After reading Mark's post above me I think he summed up my problems with the drills for backhand. I'll keep working on it until I get it.
sunspot
Double Eagle Member
Blake_T said:
I've found the feel of the pivot by using a lid from a cup. Working with something smaller in circumference has helped identify and solidify the pivot process,applying that knowledge to a larger object has been harder. The hardest thing for me is timing the pivot correctly with the disc. The natural tendency that I do is rush the feel of the pivot. That, and learning to clamp down with my thumb and index finger creating the pressure point of the pivot.
Another thing that you have stated that I think helps create more power/accuracy to the pivot is keeping the elbow further away from the body. I think that's one tidbit that people might overlook. If you think about it, you wouldn't hammer a nail with your elbow jammed into your ribcage. The elbow is out in front has you come down with the hammer. The same concept applies when throwing.
All in all, the drills work. The more I practice the easier it becomes.
Bradley Walker said:
DO IT!!!!!!
JR
* Ace Member *
So far it would seem for me that going about getting the disc to pivot by my own means I've gotten best results by not trying to throw hard and maximizing looseness of the grip to that of a laser line putt that moves the wrist in a mellow fashion gives me the best late acceleration and disc pivot. The wrist is tightening by itself from the effort of flicking the hand forward and once the hand reaches just a few degrees short of neutral the disc starts to pivot automatically and then I just tighten the grip. Consciously slightly so that it eliminates early slips and makes it easier for the automated tightening. That does not always happen for me.
What really made things better for me was not trying so hard than before to yank the wrist actively forward in a large arc. I think my active motion is at the most 20 degrees of movement from bent back to neutral. I've yet to try to hyper spin the wrist flick. The other great help has been stopping to try to overachieve with the wrist flick. Thus far it's been close to gritting my teeth effort that has really tensed up my forearm muscles and retarded the wrist flick.
Maximum speed requires a delicate wrist flick that for me so far can only be achieved with the usage of power extremely late in the throw like the last 5-6" and even then it should start out with just the outer layers of the muscles. The twitch kind that pull the arm away from a hot thing. Think of that feeling and you might remember that the arm twitch does not use the whole arm muscle mass in any of the muscles. Only the outer parts. If you throw a piece of paper by snapping it you need to limit the arm speed and move the wrist at max speed and the effort is minimal because the paper piece weighs nothing. That is what wrist part of the snap feels like for me. Like moving an empty hand very elegantly and without effort. The real effort in the arm muscles comes when the fingers start to clamp down on the disc during the disc pivot right after it starts. Easy does it. The power of back to front motion comes from the legs, hips and the shoulders and chopping the elbow forward. The elbow chop is fast with loose muscles so why slam on handbrake by tensing up the forearm?
Feel wise the motion of the hand from bent back 20 odd degrees left of neutral to neutral is just a little more tight than having the right palm facing down limp wristed and slapping the right palm to neutral with the left palm. Subjectively the most of the wrist motion of a throw feels like twice the tension of the left wrist slap up. Which is nearly no tension. Only tensing up more in the final degrees of the straightening toward hand neutral when the disc starts to pivot. And then it is a lot. This goes against the advice I've heard of trying to not lock up the wrist straight but almost so that there's tension in the tendons which is unloaded in the wrist snap forward. Or maybe I've gotten the timing of the usage of the tendons wrong earlier and it should indeed happen for the wrist in the last 5-6" of the arm stroke before the rip. Ideas and advice about this timing please? How does it work for you?
I should add that I've done the sidearm to backhand to side arm and back wrist exercise for three years I think so that is consistent with these drills.
The best result from today: Unrested not well slept after two rounds Champ Beast 166 released flat staying flat to 300'ish tilting anny a degree or two moving right only about 8' then flexing and fading a few feet left of the original line stopped after a short skip at 400'. That was with a less than jogging speed run up and an accelerating toward the end x step with shoulder line reach back of 200ish degrees left of the target. Apexing at around 16-18'. Mild to no rear wind. It's more repeatable and accurate way of driving than my usual max effort where I tend to not stay loose long enough and start the arm acceleration too early and sluggishly. The above way has way more radical arm acceleration when I time it right. It seems to be getting more repeatable for me to the point that I can do this even on tighter holes with no worse results than before. Not just field practice max D efforts. That's gotta be worth something. It's too early but I think I've gained 10-15' average golf D and a slightly smaller variance. Not too shabby for only a few sessions too wide apart. The temp was 50F so the results might be better during summer.
What really made things better for me was not trying so hard than before to yank the wrist actively forward in a large arc. I think my active motion is at the most 20 degrees of movement from bent back to neutral. I've yet to try to hyper spin the wrist flick. The other great help has been stopping to try to overachieve with the wrist flick. Thus far it's been close to gritting my teeth effort that has really tensed up my forearm muscles and retarded the wrist flick.
Maximum speed requires a delicate wrist flick that for me so far can only be achieved with the usage of power extremely late in the throw like the last 5-6" and even then it should start out with just the outer layers of the muscles. The twitch kind that pull the arm away from a hot thing. Think of that feeling and you might remember that the arm twitch does not use the whole arm muscle mass in any of the muscles. Only the outer parts. If you throw a piece of paper by snapping it you need to limit the arm speed and move the wrist at max speed and the effort is minimal because the paper piece weighs nothing. That is what wrist part of the snap feels like for me. Like moving an empty hand very elegantly and without effort. The real effort in the arm muscles comes when the fingers start to clamp down on the disc during the disc pivot right after it starts. Easy does it. The power of back to front motion comes from the legs, hips and the shoulders and chopping the elbow forward. The elbow chop is fast with loose muscles so why slam on handbrake by tensing up the forearm?
Feel wise the motion of the hand from bent back 20 odd degrees left of neutral to neutral is just a little more tight than having the right palm facing down limp wristed and slapping the right palm to neutral with the left palm. Subjectively the most of the wrist motion of a throw feels like twice the tension of the left wrist slap up. Which is nearly no tension. Only tensing up more in the final degrees of the straightening toward hand neutral when the disc starts to pivot. And then it is a lot. This goes against the advice I've heard of trying to not lock up the wrist straight but almost so that there's tension in the tendons which is unloaded in the wrist snap forward. Or maybe I've gotten the timing of the usage of the tendons wrong earlier and it should indeed happen for the wrist in the last 5-6" of the arm stroke before the rip. Ideas and advice about this timing please? How does it work for you?
I should add that I've done the sidearm to backhand to side arm and back wrist exercise for three years I think so that is consistent with these drills.
The best result from today: Unrested not well slept after two rounds Champ Beast 166 released flat staying flat to 300'ish tilting anny a degree or two moving right only about 8' then flexing and fading a few feet left of the original line stopped after a short skip at 400'. That was with a less than jogging speed run up and an accelerating toward the end x step with shoulder line reach back of 200ish degrees left of the target. Apexing at around 16-18'. Mild to no rear wind. It's more repeatable and accurate way of driving than my usual max effort where I tend to not stay loose long enough and start the arm acceleration too early and sluggishly. The above way has way more radical arm acceleration when I time it right. It seems to be getting more repeatable for me to the point that I can do this even on tighter holes with no worse results than before. Not just field practice max D efforts. That's gotta be worth something. It's too early but I think I've gained 10-15' average golf D and a slightly smaller variance. Not too shabby for only a few sessions too wide apart. The temp was 50F so the results might be better during summer.
I've tried the new techniques on my backhand throws quite a bit lately and even stopped in GGGT and talked to Blake a bit about it. So far it hasn't helped me much but I think my problem isn't related to the technique. I think I have always done this and that is why people say I don't look like I am throwing hard when I throw. The technique works very well, having played a round with Dan I have witnessed it. It is stunning to see in person. I think my problem is that my arm speed will never allow me to hit 450' on a regular basis any more.
mojorisin35
Birdie Member
Blake_T said:
I have wanted to tell of my experience of theses drills for awhile, however driving feels soooo good now I have been hard pressed to come in from the practice field.
A little background of my history with discs. I have only been playing for a year and had never thrown any type of disc before starting disc golf. Naturally when I started I was all over the place with distance and accuracy. My first plateau came after some coaching and practice with the local "big arm". I was hitting 200'-250' on most drives and was exhausted at the end of 18. After a suggestion to read DGR I saw Dan's awesome video of working from the hit backward, practicing this for countless hours moved me to a plateau of 280'-300' and this is where I stayed all this year during league play, regardless of the number of hours of practice. I heard stuff from the guys at league like "you're pulling anhyzer that's why x is so far right", "oh now that you have done that twice you will fix it".
After this technique was announced to the general public I immediately went into practicing everything. As well I spoke with Dan Beto and he gave me some advice on the drills, and added another exercise which really helped. He advised that I practice the exercises for a min of 5 hours during the next week, and then go and do the right pec drill trying to recreate the feeling from the exercises. The part that helped allot that Dan suggested was to throw from a standstill, however hold the disc with the index and the middle finger stacked and use the other fingers "not on the disc" to only support the disc from sliding down your hand. Throwing with this grip really gives the feeling of the pivot, and the rip.
Another big discovery was that I needed to relax, during the run up and the pull. I literally run a mellow tune through my head at the start of my run-up (for me its Xavier Rudd's song breeze). Just enough muscle tension to keep the disc in my hands, run up-pull consciously thinking chill- see the target and POW as hard as I can. The longer I can stay relaxed the further and harder I can throw. It feels effortless and counter intuitive...perhaps that is why it is so elusive for us newbie's.
My experience has been nothing short of phenomenal. I realized I was pulling with pure arm strength, no real whip, no snap. My golf d is up to 380' with the occasional 430'. Now at league I hear things like "wow did you just turnover that disc" " heh! torquey mc torque" "What the hell has Dan been teaching You?". It gets better every day, fast advancement and a ton of enjoyment. Of course it also opens up a ton of other things to work on. I'm having trouble pinching the disc in the last 5" so I have been practicing that. I need to work on a consistent run up, some days I land with my foot planted 20 degree's to the right, beautiful flight just 20 degrees to the right. My uneasiness with my run up is robbing some of the distance I feel I could achieve. Thank you Dan, Blake, and other posters to this thread your effort has made a ton of difference in my game.
Gary
My turn to share my experiences with the hammer pound. A little background first. Previously, I had a good, consistent forehand drive (300-325 feet), but a wimpy backhand drive (270ish). And my backhand drives were pretty inconsistent. So my goal with the hammer pound drill is to develop a good backhand throw.
I started playing with the hammer pound about 2 months ago. Unfortunately, I have only gotten about 10-15 field sessions in. Life keeps getting in the way (2.5 weeks of vacation, work issues, family issues, swarms of yellow jackets infesting my practice field, etc.). I started with backhand standstill throws, went to a one step throw and I have started working on two step throws. My standstill throws (with little pull back and little hip/shoulder turn) are about 90% of my previous x-step throws. My one step throws are about the same as my previous x-step throws. I am getting weight shift, but not much hip/shoulder turn on my one step throws. The nice thing is that my throws are consistent low line drive throws. If I drew a line towards my target, 8 of 10 throws would be within 10 feet right or left of the line. In fact, better consistency is probably a bigger win than more distance.
I am pretty confident that if I can put in some field sessions working on a two step, then a full x-step throw, that my throws will lengthen out. Especially when I add hip and shoulder turn. It is now a matter of finding the time to get out to the field.
Some random observations:
1) About a month ago, I tied my course record. Usually, I set personal bests by making a bunch of spectacular throws. Not this time, I don't think I made any spectacular throws, instead I just hit every fairway.
2) So far, every time that I lose the hammer pound feeling, it is because I have started pulling too fast. I have this bad habit of pulling faster when I want/need more distance. So I just pull very slowly until I hit the right pec area and the feeling comes back.
3) I have played some with the dinner plate drill. The first session was horrible. The second session was better and it is about the same distance as the hammer pound. I suspect that I am not getting it right. When I started the hammer pound, the results were pretty dramatic. Much faster, consistent low line drives. After the dinner plate drill, my throws might be 10% farther, but not dramatically different.
4) I now have to worry about low obstacles. There is a hole on the local course where I am usually left with a 150-200 foot approach shot. About half way to the pin, there is a log about 4 feet off the ground. Previously, my approach shots always cleared the log easily. I never had to think about it. After the hammer pound drill, I started hitting the log. My line drive shots are just lower and I need to think about throwing them a little higher to clear the log.
5) Putter drives on top-of-the-world holes. Now I have enough spin on the throw, that I can drive a putter straight off a top-of-the-world hole and the putter will just cruise straight down towards the hole. I really like making these throws.
I started playing with the hammer pound about 2 months ago. Unfortunately, I have only gotten about 10-15 field sessions in. Life keeps getting in the way (2.5 weeks of vacation, work issues, family issues, swarms of yellow jackets infesting my practice field, etc.). I started with backhand standstill throws, went to a one step throw and I have started working on two step throws. My standstill throws (with little pull back and little hip/shoulder turn) are about 90% of my previous x-step throws. My one step throws are about the same as my previous x-step throws. I am getting weight shift, but not much hip/shoulder turn on my one step throws. The nice thing is that my throws are consistent low line drive throws. If I drew a line towards my target, 8 of 10 throws would be within 10 feet right or left of the line. In fact, better consistency is probably a bigger win than more distance.
I am pretty confident that if I can put in some field sessions working on a two step, then a full x-step throw, that my throws will lengthen out. Especially when I add hip and shoulder turn. It is now a matter of finding the time to get out to the field.
Some random observations:
1) About a month ago, I tied my course record. Usually, I set personal bests by making a bunch of spectacular throws. Not this time, I don't think I made any spectacular throws, instead I just hit every fairway.
2) So far, every time that I lose the hammer pound feeling, it is because I have started pulling too fast. I have this bad habit of pulling faster when I want/need more distance. So I just pull very slowly until I hit the right pec area and the feeling comes back.
3) I have played some with the dinner plate drill. The first session was horrible. The second session was better and it is about the same distance as the hammer pound. I suspect that I am not getting it right. When I started the hammer pound, the results were pretty dramatic. Much faster, consistent low line drives. After the dinner plate drill, my throws might be 10% farther, but not dramatically different.
4) I now have to worry about low obstacles. There is a hole on the local course where I am usually left with a 150-200 foot approach shot. About half way to the pin, there is a log about 4 feet off the ground. Previously, my approach shots always cleared the log easily. I never had to think about it. After the hammer pound drill, I started hitting the log. My line drive shots are just lower and I need to think about throwing them a little higher to clear the log.
5) Putter drives on top-of-the-world holes. Now I have enough spin on the throw, that I can drive a putter straight off a top-of-the-world hole and the putter will just cruise straight down towards the hole. I really like making these throws.
krik72
Par Member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2010
- Messages
- 174
Finally took my throw out from a strained 350' to a relatively effortless 420' and expecting a bit more as I just had the "aha" moment on the last round. TBH I did all the exercises and it helped me understand what I was shooting for but I could never transition the feeling into a real RHBH drive. I did develop an exercise that helped me feel the hit then transition it into my distance drive.
What I did:
Take a stack of Z Buzzz and pick a target that is at a distance that would be easy to over throw (for me this was about 200'). Practice throwing a straight shot (or slowly right turning RHBH shot) at the target, absolutely no sweeping hyzers allowed. You want to release flat or with a minor annie. You will notice practicing this shot to get any kind of consistency you will need a short reachback with an abrupt release (snapping the towel). This exercise made me realize I had been throwing all my shots 90-100% power and controlling distance with hyzer angles rather than controlling the power which seems very common. This meant when I powered down I would still reachback full and then wimpy arm my throw. But doing this exercise forces you to power down and to get consistent you must *snap* the towel.
Once I could feel that feeling it seemed like it instantly integrated into my drives and I started throwing the same distance effortlessly, then a bit further as I got more and more control over that feeling and stretched my reachback more and more.
What I did:
Take a stack of Z Buzzz and pick a target that is at a distance that would be easy to over throw (for me this was about 200'). Practice throwing a straight shot (or slowly right turning RHBH shot) at the target, absolutely no sweeping hyzers allowed. You want to release flat or with a minor annie. You will notice practicing this shot to get any kind of consistency you will need a short reachback with an abrupt release (snapping the towel). This exercise made me realize I had been throwing all my shots 90-100% power and controlling distance with hyzer angles rather than controlling the power which seems very common. This meant when I powered down I would still reachback full and then wimpy arm my throw. But doing this exercise forces you to power down and to get consistent you must *snap* the towel.
Once I could feel that feeling it seemed like it instantly integrated into my drives and I started throwing the same distance effortlessly, then a bit further as I got more and more control over that feeling and stretched my reachback more and more.
krik72 said:
Earlier this year this was how I was throwing my approach shots. The pull line was almost shoulder level and the disc was quite far from my body, but I would have a fairly short reachback and then a decent snap with very little follow-through and it was pretty much always on target. There was some disc pivot and it felt like I was almost pulling back on the disc as it was coming out. I was never able to add a ton of power to these but could easily get my mids out to 65%, maybe 75% of my regular full-run-up-and-way-too-much-effort throw with the same discs. In hindsight, I think that shot was most of the way there for a hammer pound, but had more of a medium strength wrist flick instead of a strong opening of the wrist.
And I lost it.
But after spending some time trying unsuccessfully to get the hang of the secret technique (BH), I think I need to put in some real effort to rediscover that throw. Now that I have the hammer pound in my brain I really want to rediscover that throw that I lost and see if I really was most of the way to a hammer pound and then figure out how to get the pull line lower and bring it in much closer to my body.
I end this with a question. Has anybody else been successful in finding the hammer pound, but found that it was quite far from your body or that the pull line was quite high?
I did something similar. About a month ago, I decided that I wanted to work on my aiming. So I went to a tunnel hole early in the morning (7am). This hole is 350 feet long with a 12-20 foot wide fairway, with walls of trees on both sides of the fairway. I would throw towards the pin and then turn around and throw back towards the teepad.
My goal was to throw my putters, midranges and fairway drivers flat and as far as I could without hitting trees on either side. I started out throwing half power and then adding power as I got better. I found that the only way that I could keep it in the fairway was to add lots of snap. And the discs fly fairly well at half power if you have plenty of snap. It was an easy way to know when I was pounding the hammer or when I was aiming in the wrong direction.
My goal was to throw my putters, midranges and fairway drivers flat and as far as I could without hitting trees on either side. I started out throwing half power and then adding power as I got better. I found that the only way that I could keep it in the fairway was to add lots of snap. And the discs fly fairly well at half power if you have plenty of snap. It was an easy way to know when I was pounding the hammer or when I was aiming in the wrong direction.
josser said:
Josser, I definitely have found more success with the hammer pound when I tend to keep everything further away from my body. I get that heavy disc feeling, and my Rocs and Wizards have been leaving my hand at a noticeably faster speed. This is also when I feel I get my longest drives, with hardly any physical effort at all. It even seems to yield better results with the towel drills as well. It drives me crazy b/c this seems contrary to everything I have read, and I still don't understand it. When I try to bring things close to my right pec, nothing feels right, the pound does not feel strong at all, and my consistency and distance goes out the window. The only time I feel I'm pulling close to the chest sometimes is with steep hyzers. I cannot comment on the high pull line b/c I have really been trying to keep that lower lately.
I had a friend review a few of my "further away from the body" throws, and he still thought it looked like I was keeping things tight enough to my body. I need to get some throws on video and review them to know for sure.
Similar threads
