Unapproachable approaches?

[Dingus]

go for the park job which is more difficult (but doable) or take the easy lane and git gud at putting. Easy is not the definition of woods (or any) golf.

But that isn't what he said or what I responded to. Difficult but doable is fine. Completely random plinko trees is not.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No, because then it's yet another deuce or die hole for all am1 and pros...and boring. Araytx said it - go for the park job which is more difficult (but doable) or take the easy lane and git gud at putting. Easy is not the definition of woods (or any) golf.

Sorry but golf is about laying out a fair challenge and letting players deal with it. You don't see more than few hole designs in golf where if you land in the designated landing areas or the green, you are stymied from accessing the cup. Some designers are so embarrassed about putting being so easy they feel it's necessary to trick out a hole so the basket is blind and/or not accessible from the air without a skip or ricochet to hole out. No fun, false challenge, fluky design.

Maybe design one significantly blocked hole per 18, but we know that holing out from a distance whether ace, long putt or approach is what excites people, it's what they talk about and in fact are the only shots that make it on to Sports Center. It's a rare highlight when an announcer says something like, "It was incredible he somehow got through that jungle to land 30 feet from the pin," unless he was throwing from the jungle already and not from the fairway or tee.

 

[GripEnemy]

But that isn't what he said or what I responded to. Difficult but doable is fine. Completely random plinko trees is not.

You quoted two paragraphs I apologize for misunderstanding.

Agreed on random plinko! However, I feel I may view this hole differently than OP. I've never stood on the teebox so I'll never truly know. Maybe some drone footage popping up would solidify an opinion for me?

 

[R-Ogre]

I don't know what kind of course the OP is talking about but if you're expecting every local county/city sponsored woods course to have a perfectly thought out layout with multiple shots with different levels of risk/reward when the course design weenies get into debates about that even when discussing most of the courses on the pro tours, you're gonna be disappointed. Maybe don't over analyze things and just figure out what gives you the best score consistently on that course? Or get involved in whatever entity takes care of the course and do what it takes to cut a better lane?

 

[Rastnav]

I don't know what kind of course the OP is talking about but if you're expecting every local county/city sponsored woods course to have a perfectly thought out layout with multiple shots with different levels of risk/reward when the course design weenies get into debates about that even when discussing most of the courses on the pro tours, you're gonna be disappointed. Maybe don't over analyze things and just figure out what gives you the best score consistently on that course? Or get involved in whatever entity takes care of the course and do what it takes to cut a better lane?

Well, that last part is sorta along the lines of my thinking, down the line, maybe. Note the ending to my original post. But one hates to go into those conversations without some sort of read on what's considered fair/normal/ etc.

 

[Dingus]

You quoted two paragraphs I apologize for misunderstanding.

Agreed on random plinko! However, I feel I may view this hole differently than OP. I've never stood on the teebox so I'll never truly know. Maybe some drone footage popping up would solidify an opinion for me?

Yeah agreed, looking at the hole pictures provided it doesn't seem crazy, and I think I would put up a couple 2's a year based on what I have seen.

 

[GripEnemy]

Sorry but golf is about laying out a fair challenge and letting players deal with it. You don't see more than few hole designs in golf where if you land in the designated landing areas or the green, you are stymied from accessing the cup. Some designers are so embarrassed about putting being so easy they feel it's necessary to trick out a hole so the basket is blind and/or not accessible from the air without a skip or ricochet to hole out. No fun, false challenge, fluky design.

Maybe design one significantly blocked hole per 18, but we know that holing out from a distance whether ace, long putt or approach is what excites people, it's what they talk about and in fact are the only shots that make it on to Sports Center. It's a rare highlight when an announcer says something like, "It was incredible he somehow got through that jungle to land 30 feet from the pin," unless he was throwing from the jungle already and not from the fairway or tee.

This green is "unfair" or "tricked out" to you? I agree the fairway (or the very end of it where it meets the green to be specific) could stand to lose a tree or two, but nothing about this image screams Plinko to me.

You're obviously more experienced than I am in design I'll never deny that, but this image just seems like a tough two and an, "I'll be really really pissed if I four" but that's it. Even if I land 100' off of the teepad I should still be able to scramble a three.

Old hole #5 (now #14) at Nockamixon has few true lanes, is that a poorly designed hole? Not coming at you, genuinely curious about your opinion.

EDIT: 803' par 5 for those unfamiliar

 

[Rastnav]

You quoted two paragraphs I apologize for misunderstanding.

Agreed on random plinko! However, I feel I may view this hole differently than OP. I've never stood on the teebox so I'll never truly know. Maybe some drone footage popping up would solidify an opinion for me?

So this last part prompted me to go look for some, and I got something better: tournament footage.

At the time signature below (36:25), there is two minutes of coverage of the hole.
https://youtu.be/USe-Y6fFyoQ?t=2185

Basically, I'm wrong. If you watch through the footage, I think part of what's influenced me is how often I have been over on the left side rough, where two of the players on the card end up. Brutal for a noob like me.

But, given that the one player who ends up where I end up putting my good drives throws a thumber from there, I think there might be something to what I am saying.

The key to my wrongness seems to be that there is a hyzer line (which I might not have the arm to play) that you will get you right to the mouth of those openings, and then they are definitely wide lanes. I think it's when you try and get through them on bad angles that everything gets really closed down. Next time I feel like am not on a good angle, I'll likely just try to pitch to the mouth of one of the lanes.

 

[Jimb]

Sounds, and looks, like a hole I would enjoy playing. I wouldn't want all holes to play like I imagine that this one would... but anytime that I can throw Aviar, Aviar, Aviar I tend to be happy.

 

[Cgkdisc]

This green is "unfair" or "tricked out" to you? I agree the fairway (or the very end of it where it meets the green to be specific) could stand to lose a tree or two, but nothing about this image screams Plinko to me.

You're obviously more experienced than I am in design I'll never deny that, but this image just seems like a tough two and an, "I'll be really really pissed if I four" but that's it. Even if I land 100' off of the teepad I should still be able to scramble a three.

Old hole #5 (now #14) at Nockamixon has few true lanes, is that a poorly designed hole? Not coming at you, genuinely curious about your opinion.

EDIT: 803' par 5 for those unfamiliar

I wasn't commenting on the specifics of these holes but in general. Best I can tell in the pictures, it looks like there are air routes to the pin.

 

[Rastnav]

Oh, man, That is actually quite the card for a course I've played frequently:
Lance Brown
Brian Schweberger
Barry Schultz
Nathan Queen
Casey Davis

 

[GripEnemy]

I wasn't commenting on the specifics of these holes but in general. Best I can tell in the pictures, it looks like there are air routes to the pin.

The discussion IS about this hole. Why respond to me if you're speaking in generalities? Yes there's lanes in the Nocky picture, there's also lanes in OPs image.

Again, respect where it's due, I'm just a non PDGA member *******.

 

[Rastnav]

The discussion IS about this hole. Why respond to me if you're speaking in generalities? Yes there's lanes in the Nocky picture, there's also lanes in OPs image.

Again, respect where it's due, I'm just a non PDGA member *******.

I think there was a also side conversation going on about course design principles in general. Just sort of lost in the middle of my posts.

 

[Countchunkula]

The hole in question is definitely the outlier here. Look at all those deuces!

 

[Rastnav]

The hole in question is definitely the outlier here. Look at all those deuces!

Slightly misleading, though.They were playing that round from the rec tees, but the "Fore more" section of Valley Springs doesn't have rec tees. The Final Round is from the whites and isn't quite as deuce laden.

 

[GripEnemy]

Slightly misleading, though.They were playing that round from the rec tees, but the "Fore more" section of Valley Springs doesn't have rec tees. The Final Round is from the whites and isn't quite as deuce laden.

His point being (I'm assuming) is zero of those five scored a deuce...while most of the rest of the card is full of twos. Proves Cgk correct and me wrong.

I stand by my statements

 

[TimmyGah]

Slightly misleading, though.They were playing that round from the rec tees, but the "Fore more" section of Valley Springs doesn't have rec tees. The Final Round is from the whites and isn't quite as deuce laden.

Only 50 % with none on 22

 

[Rastnav]

Only 50 % with none on 22

Yeah, I'll stand by the idea that the lanes to the pin are tough to access as compared to the rest of the course, even from the whites.

But the lanes are there, so I just need to maneuver myself around that hole better. Unless my drive is in the right spot I just need to play for my four. Just try and get to the mouth of one of those lanes.

 

[TimmyGah]

Yeah, I'll stand by the idea that the lanes to the pin are tough to access as compared to the rest of the course, even from the whites.

But the lanes are there, so I just need to maneuver myself around that hole better. Unless my drive is in the right spot I just need to play for my four. Just try and get to the mouth of one of those lanes.

Have faith in your putters

 

[wolfhaley]

It's hard to tell exactly from the pictures but I feel I've seen much harder holes. Those trees in the fairway have no branches until at least 30 feet up it appears. And it's a par 4 at 315 feet.