[Discraft] Understable Compliment to the Buzzz

[Frank Delicious]

If you throw a comet and a buzz the same way, one of them is not going to perform up to it's potential. You can still throw both of them the same way but just realize that.

Man this thread has gotten dumb.

 

[Smigles]

Lol. So if I practice enough I can outswim mikey felps?!hahaha

He sais so. I'd rather believe him than you.

No offense.



Edit : But ok, please do educate me. I am still rather new to this, and i am willing to learn.

I do throw the buzzz and the comet. I have a feeling that i do throw them the same way. I can get realy straight throws and hyzers in various degrees out of my buzzz. I am working on anhyzering them aroud obstacles. I even get Z-shots out of them. The only time i use the comet is for flip hyzers that go straight and then fade right.

How am i not using the full potential of the comet ? What more can it do that i am missing out ? How would i have to throw it different than my buzzz to make it do new things ? Are you talking about grip, speed, angle, hight ?

 

[Technohic]

He sais so. I'd rather believe him than you.

No offense.

Hearing this, and you buying into it, if I were a business, Phelps would be my spokesman...

Actually, I think I could go into business selling turds and he would make them sell.

 

[Smigles]

If you throw a comet and a buzz the same way, one of them is not going to perform up to it's potential. You can still throw both of them the same way but just realize that.

Edit time has run out, so i post again, sorry...

Frank, how exactly do you know the potential of a disc ? And how do you know when you have reached it ?

 

[discspeed]

Of course there are little differences, but in general the two kids will beat the crap out of 99% of the players that start at a later age. Moreso, the difference between these two kids will never be big as long as they both play and practice the same amount.

At the top level, all the guys can play the disc well. It is more about the shape you are in that day, how much you like the course, and most of all the mental game. Still not talent. All the guys at the top level have a feeling for the disc, all of them have worked long and practiced alot. You can ask any top athlete, it is all in the head. They all have the muscles, they all have practiced for ages. Look at olympic ski racing, the difference is often less than a tenth of a second, and they ALL say that it is in the mental game. No wonder that they all have mental coaches.

"In training everyone focuses on 90% physical and 10% mental, but in the races its 90% mental because there's very little that separates us physically at the elite level".
Elka Graham

"I wouldn't say anything is impossible. I think that everything is possible as long as you put your mind to it and put the work and time into it".
Michael Phelps

"A world record is 99% training and 1% talent"
( forgot who said that... )

You can't really talk about Olympic athletes or the top level of anything, because to get that far every competitor is in the 99th percentile talent-wise. Every Olympian was the best and dominated everyone at lower levels. The guy that sat next to Michael Phelps in his 7th grade pre-algebra class could NEVER have competed with him, no matter what.

I do agree with you that disc golf is a great game because a lot of factors (such as mental game) can compete with the pure natural ability to throw the disc. The physical aspect of the game however has a lot of talent involved. I used to teach middle/high school gym classes, and the difference in natural ability was astounding, even at that young of an age. Just like some kids have a 150 IQ and can do university level math at age 12, some kids are equally as gifted physically.

This all comes down to nature vs. nurture at the core. I have degree in behavioral psych, so I'm more likely to agree that nurture has a larger role in the grand scheme of things, but even I cannot deny things like talent and natural ability exist. They certainly never totally determine how great someone will be, but those who become experts/great at anything somehow had so natural inclination to do so that they built on with good behavioral habits.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Edit time has run out, so i post again, sorry...

Frank, how exactly do you know the potential of a disc ? And how do you know when you have reached it ?

basic answer: you know the flight charts and disc ratings? There ya go.

More complicated answer: You ever play a round with those guys who use like a star wraith as their overstable disc b/c they can only throw 300' and the disc performs overstable for them? Or the guy who has so much torque in his throw he has to throw champ gators and pro pigs to get a mid or putter to hold a hyzer line and turns everything less stable over? Those guys are blissfully ignorant of how to get their discs to perform to their potential because they have not done the time to properly research how the discs should perform. They can do that by checking flight charts, learning speeds of discs, learning good form, talking with pros, and reading sites like this.

If I throw a comet the same way I throw a buzz, the comet will turn and burn. If I throw a buzz like a comet, it will not get up to speed and it will probably hyzer out earlier than I want it to. I carry rocs and comets b/c they can both be thrown in a similar fashion and with similar arm speed to get good performance out of both.

Disc golf is about consistency. One of the easiest way to be consistent is to eliminate variables. An easy way to eliminate variables in your throw is to throw discs that perform similarly. I like eagles so I throw SOLFs since they are like a longer eagle and can be thrown like one. I like rocs so I throw wizards b/c they can be thrown very similarly. If a person thinks they can master 10 or 15 molds and perform at the skill level they want to be at, good for them, but it is gonna be a lot more work and will require much more precision on their part. I'm lazy, so I'll just stick with my 5-6 molds that all throw pretty much the same.

 

[jtencer]

To clarify, I use an extremely worn x-comet and a new(ish) z-buzz. I throw them differently, but I wouldn't say that one hurts the other. I usually drive 400-450 (closer to 400 usually) and I come from an extensive ultimate background.

The buzz was the first mid that I owned (I was one of those 2 disc driver/putter guys for a long time). I liked the buzz because I could throw it similarly to how I was throwing my driver (Wraith at the time) but I could control the distance easier while still reaching holes that I couldn't drive with my putter.

I added the x-comet and was amazed at how easy it was to throw. I pretty much throw it like an ultrastar. It's great for when I want to finish right or for when accuracy is extremely important (hitting a gap). It has enough glide that I don't have to turn my head when I'm throwing so I wind up hitting the gaps much more consistently. That's the biggest benefit that I've gotten from the comet, and I couldn't do that if I were throwing a mid that required as much speed as the buzz.

So I understand that you don't want to throw 2 mids that are too different because that prevents you from using lessons learned on one with the other. That said, I don't feel like either one has really hurt the other. I didn't have to go through a steep learning curve with the comet like some people apparently do. The only possible downside is that they necessarily share a finite number of mid shots during any given round which means less practice. However, a lot of the shots that my comet is taking are shots that I used to throw FH with the buzz or with a putter so it doesn't even take that many throws away.

I guess that having been alternating between ultimate and disc golf for so many years I've gotten used to changing up my throw based on which plastic is in my hand. It just doesn't seem like something that should be avoided as avidly as it is being made out to be. I only carry 6 molds including the 2 different mids, so I don't feel like I'm really hurting in the minimalism department.

 

[discspeed]

If you are going to pair any Comet with the Buzzz I would say that the X is the best. The X is faster because it shrinks much more than the other plastics, so it's a little closer to the Buzzz in feel and speed. There are still better options though.

 

[jtencer]

I guess you could say that rather than using an overstable and understable mid, I am using a power mid and a finesse mid that are both closer to being neutrally stable. I suppose it isn't exactly what the OP was asking for, but I feel like it works pretty well for me.

 

[Smigles]

If you are going to pair any Comet with the Buzzz I would say that the X is the best. The X is faster because it shrinks much more than the other plastics, so it's a little closer to the Buzzz in feel and speed. There are still better options though.

I have esp buzzes and Z comets. I noticed that i need to give the Z comet more speed to flip than the X comet, so it is closer to the buzzz.

I still dont use the comet for anything but hyzerflips. Annys and z shots and straight shots work so good with the buzzz, i dont need another disc for that.

Frank : Thanks for the clarification. We only have 5 players here in my town, so no, i dont realy know that many different play styles or discs. I am still new, too.

What you say makes sence though. Maybe i should try the Fuse. Now that i think of it, i have troubles with the comet burning sometimes. Not that i use it much, anyway, i think 95% of my midrange throws are buzzz.

 

[craftsman]

Speed and stability have corralations but are not dependant of one another- think drone vs katana. While the z comet is closer to the buzzzez stability, the x is a lil faster.

Just to clarify, many, including dc pro Scott papa, carry buzzz&comet. It will just be easier for average players to get more from simillar speed mids.

 

[RShott]

Another disc that you might want to look at is the Gateway Element; that's what I pair with my buzzz. It's a great disc.

 

[jtencer]

So after reading Smigles (SP?) post where he said that he mainly uses comets for hyzer flips, I started thinking.

I hyzer flip every single disc in my bag. I change the hyzer angle, height, and arm speed depending on the disc, wind, and desired shot, but I almost always start with some hyzer. The only exception is if I'm throwing a big anyhyzer around some trees in which case I throw with anhyzer and a lot of height (depending upon the distance).

Is that uncommon? I usually play with FH dominant players so it's harder to tell.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Some people like to throw hyzer flip shots, some people like throwing flat or anny with everything. I play with one pro who throws almost every drive with a little anny if he can and is great at it. He can work a star cro and champ gator like no one I've ever seen. I also play with a pro that hyzer flips everything, his bag is full of stable or understable plastic. It is all preference.

I prefer hyzer flips.

 

[Smigles]

I only have one putter, midrange and driver for hyzer flips. Well ok, two drivers ( valk and orion LS ). I dont realy like them because sometimes they flip too much or too little. I can not always hit it 100% perfect.

Still, there are some holes where you just need that shot, so i carry these discs with me. Anywhere else i prefer hyzers that continue hyzer, they are much more predictable to me.

 

[bikinjack]

2 : There is no such thing as "natural talent". At least 99.9% of what you call talent is practice. If you practice enugh, you can throw any disc and more generaly speaking become good at anything.

This is the single most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Thanks for the laugh.

Smigles, are you a cycling fan? If you are, then consider why Fabian Cancellara, as great a cyclist as he is, will never win a Grand Tour. He can't climb. That's why. Sure, he can out climb 99.99% of the cycling population, but that 0.01% that can go up a hill faster than him have a completely different body type than he does, a classic example being Marco Pantani. On the other hand, somebody who's built like Contador or one of the Schlek's will never win Roubaix, which Cancellara has won multiple times. All of these guys have immense amounts of natural talent, and are all great cyclists, but no amount of training is going to change their DNA, making them a completely different type of cyclist.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Natural talent definitely exists as do natural advantages certain people are born with. Saying otherwise is buying a little too heavy into the American Dream idea that anyone anywhere can do anything they put their mind to.

 

[jtencer]

Natural talent definitely exists as do natural advantages certain people are born with. Saying otherwise is buying a little too heavy into the American Dream idea that anyone anywhere can do anything they put their mind to.

Very true.

However much you want to believe otherwise, some kids are more athletic or smart or whatever than others. There's no way around it.

I think we could all agree that if you're 7ft tall you're much more likely to get drafted in the NBA than if you're 4'10". It doesn't matter how much you practice your jump shot.

 

[Noill]

Natural talent definitely exists as do natural advantages certain people are born with. Saying otherwise is buying a little too heavy into the American Dream idea that anyone anywhere can do anything they put their mind to.

a misinterpretation of the american dream concept... it doesn't espouse that anyone can do anything... as you say that doesn't work
the american dream is the freedom to be able to do anything... the right to be who you are regardless of class... no one really thinks that everyone is equal... but everyone has equal rights...

 

[jtencer]

Some people like to throw hyzer flip shots, some people like throwing flat or anny with everything. I play with one pro who throws almost every drive with a little anny if he can and is great at it. He can work a star cro and champ gator like no one I've ever seen. I also play with a pro that hyzer flips everything, his bag is full of stable or understable plastic. It is all preference.

I prefer hyzer flips.

Thanks, it's good to know that I'm not crazy.