Zephyr Cove needs help!!!!!!

[Noill]

The statistics you're glorifying are the amalgamation of the opinions of 37 reviewers, each of whom had to give their thoughts and then give the course in question one of eleven possible grades set by the administrator of a site that most disc golfers don't do reviews on. They are not the end product of some omnipotent being that is set in stone forever. Reviewer #38 will change things up, possibly a hair, possibly radically.

mmmm... with 37 reviews in the possibility of a 38th reviewer changing this up is negligible... also, there have been studies that prove that groups are pretty good at achieving average numbers closer to the actual number even when (and this is probably not the case) the members of the group are completely uninformed on the subject being discussed...


Off topic a little but that 4.26 listing got me looking at NJ right away... since I grew up there... Stafford Woods is sitting at 4.07 so yeah... NJ has zero courses at or above 4.26

however, Stafford is right by where I grew up so at least there's that...

 

[onemilemore]

so what's the story then? I've got all the time needed to read it...

Seconded.

But as for zephyr decrying "mass media spin" or whatever? C'mon. This is the disc golf internet, not CNN. Ease up there.

I think people are willing to listen if you give them a good reason to. But you're fighting an uphill battle by a) appearing to circumvent locals; b) trying to redesign a revered course; and c) not giving any details whatsoever. Good luck.

 

[DGsirb1978]

Zephyr

Did Zephyr ever respond with "the whole story"?

 

[EricW]

Wish this never blew up. It's a shame it was brought to the county in an academic proposal heavy with triggering alarmist buzz words and very light on details not to mention the required coin and labor needed to pull it off. Words are cheap. Parks has been relatively hands off and let us use an epic piece of land regardless of how many stars you rate the course. They've got plenty of other things to deal with. Let them handle the ball fields and community centers. We got this. We'll protect it. Don't force Parks into taking a stance.

Here's my local slant depite being called an outsider (5th generation native from Douglas Co). Stop everything! Pull the proposal, pull the petition. Just drop it all for at least a year. Let the emotions cool off and stubbornness fade. Give the county a break, the time to forget this crap. Let's make it easy on them. At some future point in 2016, we'll all get together, eat some crow for the good of the course and community, and come up with a plan.

This just proves we all love the place so in the meantime, let's pour the passion into making the State Champs awesome and positive. Zephyr deserves it. If anyone is so fired up to build that you've got to sweat it out now, come down to Reno where we've still got quite a few positions to plant and a digging bar with your name on it!

 

[Peterb]

here's the form letter I got from douglas county:

Thank You for your concerns regarding the Zephyr Cove Park Disc Golf Course. I understand that recent information and/or misinformation has been circulated regarding future improvements, operation and maintenance of this important facility.

I want to be very clear regarding Douglas County Community Services position on this matter. To date, no improvement plans have been approved, nor has control or influence of the course been given to any one individual or group. Any future improvements or agreements to operate, schedule and maintain this facility will be heard publicly. We understand that there are conflicting interests surrounding the Zephyr Cove Disc Golf Course. The Douglas County Community Services/Parks and Recreation Department will not choose sides and will continue to do what is in the best interest of this County owned facility.

To date, the only action taken is to support the development of a private, non-profit organization, who would enter into an agreement, Memorandum of Understanding, regarding the operation, maintenance and scheduling of this facility. This non-profit organization will not be given free reign of the facility and will not be exclusive with regards to membership and those who wish to be involved in the organization. Douglas County will maintain full control of the improvements implemented and will continue to supervise the operation of this facility.
Future improvements and the Memorandum of Understanding, which the non-profit organization would operate under, will be reviewed by the Park and Recreation Commission Board prior to any final approvals.

In conclusion, there are multiple steps in this process, many of which take months to complete due to public review and board approvals. Rest assured that the Zephyr Cove Disc Golf Course will remain as is until options have been reviewed publicly by Douglas County.

Thank you for your support of Douglas County and the Zephyr Cove Disc Golf Course.

 

[ru4por]

I have all the facts documented of exactly what happened here. If there`s any one out there who really cares about the truth and how it`s screwing up a Innocent mans life, what if this was you! It seem the information can`t get out trough all the mass media lies and spinning. I have not found one person yet that disagrees with me if they take the time to hear me out. We need as a group to make sure this does not happen again this is not making us look good as a community!!!!!

Again, maybe there is a lot of info on facebook, that I am missing. The bolded above simply represent a series of non sequiturs without a stated conclusion.

1. "All the facts have been documented" I currently only see those "facts" presented by Blazed from Craig Getty, Zephyr Cove DGC designer, on the Friends of Zephyr Cove Disc Golf Course page on Facebook.

2."how it is screwing up a Innocent mans life" Who life is being screwed up and how is this so? By others not agreeing with your design?

3."the information cannot get through" Post it. A discerning, critcal audience here awaits.

4."I have not found one person yet that disagrees with me if they take the time to hear me out" Post it. Again, there is a group of impartial disc golf enthusiast awaiting.

Lots of conjecture. Please supply some substance. I am a curious long time disc golf advocate, no horse in the race except the want of a safe, highest quality course. If I am missing vast information available on facebook and not here, perhaps someone else could provide it for a clearer picture.

 

[DavidSauls]

Does that Douglas County letter mean the rest of us can skip the petition?

 

[EricW]

Zephyr/Tahoe, Any chance to hold off a while to let things calm down to play nice with the community or are you still pushing forward directly with the county?

 

[mhulkman]

I know the former ranger who helped install the original course and have talked to him about whats going. He still works closely with douglas county. There are horse corals n riding trails on the right side of the parking lot. The 18th basket and 1st tee are right on the property line of park n forest service land and they were not allowed any part of the course to be on the right side of the parking lot. If you look at the "supposed" plan of Craigs that was posted on the FB page his plans show the "new" holes 1-5: A. on the right side of the parking lot. B. on national forest land and C. a MAJOR safety issue being right on top of the riding trails. How bad would the publicity be for the disc golf community if someone or there horse got nailed by a disc and/or its eventually noticed that 5 holes are on illegal ground? The community would lose some trust for future sights with the county,blm,etc...

So Tahoe on here was part of Craig Gettys new team but was kicked off due to "difference of opinion" on the "new" design. What if Tahoe was kicked off because he confronted Craig with these safety and illegal placement concerns n Craig refused to listen? If this indeed is what happened then everyone bashing Tahoe might owe him a huge apology followed by a thank you because he stopped a disaster from eventually happening.
Was running to the county with his own proposal without consulting other players in the community the best thing to do? Probably not. But was standing by and ignoring an obvious safety issue and illegal placements that could eventually shut the entire course down ok to? Im optimistic that in the long run Zephyr is going to be even greater no matter who does the new 27 hole layout.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

That's just the U.S. course count (which a mere eight days later is now 5008).

Worldwide count is now 6233.

...and that doesn't include a decent number of private courses that remain unlisted, or still active but RIP'd to keep traffic manageable for the owner/proprietor.

DGCR is still the best source of info about what courses are where, etc., but I've noticed DG Scene lists more private courses that are well to not so well kept secrets... at least my neck of the woods.

 

[ru4por]

I know the former ranger who helped install the original course and have talked to him about whats going. He still works closely with douglas county. There are horse corals n riding trails on the right side of the parking lot. The 18th basket and 1st tee are right on the property line of park n forest service land and they were not allowed any part of the course to be on the right side of the parking lot. If you look at the "supposed" plan of Craigs that was posted on the FB page his plans show the "new" holes 1-5: A. on the right side of the parking lot. B. on national forest land and C. a MAJOR safety issue being right on top of the riding trails. How bad would the publicity be for the disc golf community if someone or there horse got nailed by a disc and/or its eventually noticed that 5 holes are on illegal ground? The community would lose some trust for future sights with the county,blm,etc...

So Tahoe on here was part of Craig Gettys new team but was kicked off due to "difference of opinion" on the "new" design. What if Tahoe was kicked off because he confronted Craig with these safety and illegal placement concerns n Craig refused to listen? If this indeed is what happened then everyone bashing Tahoe might owe him a huge apology followed by a thank you because he stopped a disaster from eventually happening.
Was running to the county with his own proposal without consulting other players in the community the best thing to do? Probably not. But was standing by and ignoring an obvious safety issue and illegal placements that could eventually shut the entire course down ok to? Im optimistic that in the long run Zephyr is going to be even greater no matter who does the new 27 hole layout.

The majority here are not bashing anything. There has been nothing here to bash, outside of conjecture and innuendo. If this thread were to be used as a reasonble sounding board, a collection of pretty invested and experienced opinions, information would need to be presented. I don't think the majority here care about the people involved, their differing opinions or any squabble ongoing between the two. But, that is really all that has been presented. The course, the saftey of all involved and, in the bigger picture, the reputation and integrity of the game are the only issues.

 

[gradus]

I know the former ranger who helped install the original course and have talked to him about whats going. He still works closely with douglas county. There are horse corals n riding trails on the right side of the parking lot. The 18th basket and 1st tee are right on the property line of park n forest service land and they were not allowed any part of the course to be on the right side of the parking lot. If you look at the "supposed" plan of Craigs that was posted on the FB page his plans show the "new" holes 1-5: A. on the right side of the parking lot. B. on national forest land and C. a MAJOR safety issue being right on top of the riding trails. How bad would the publicity be for the disc golf community if someone or there horse got nailed by a disc and/or its eventually noticed that 5 holes are on illegal ground? The community would lose some trust for future sights with the county,blm,etc...

So Tahoe on here was part of Craig Gettys new team but was kicked off due to "difference of opinion" on the "new" design. What if Tahoe was kicked off because he confronted Craig with these safety and illegal placement concerns n Craig refused to listen? If this indeed is what happened then everyone bashing Tahoe might owe him a huge apology followed by a thank you because he stopped a disaster from eventually happening.
Was running to the county with his own proposal without consulting other players in the community the best thing to do? Probably not. But was standing by and ignoring an obvious safety issue and illegal placements that could eventually shut the entire course down ok to? Im optimistic that in the long run Zephyr is going to be even greater no matter who does the new 27 hole layout.

You've done a better job of communicating their argument in one post than Zephyr/Tahoe (2 different people?) have done in 8 pages. They present themselves as being completely disconnected with reality. Maybe they have something worth saying. Instead we've been hearing about forest fires, inner peace, zen, brotherhood and how they've died inside.

 

[DavidSauls]

You've done a better job of communicating their argument in one post than Zephyr/Tahoe (2 different people?) have done in 8 pages. They present themselves as being completely disconnected with reality. Maybe they have something worth saying. Instead we've been hearing about forest fires, inner peace, zen, brotherhood and how they've died inside.

---For which I, for one, am grateful. It's been more entertaining than facts ever could be.

 

[Yogi]

The whole redesign by Evolve, is nothing more than a power grab. His proposal was not put together overnight. He saw, what he perceived as flaws in my new layout (original designer here), then went over our heads to a county administrator that knows nothing of disc golf course design protocol. This was his last window of opportunity.
Mhulkman, safety is my 1st concern in design. The horse trail is well away from the 1st four new holes. These short warm up holes were designed with the intention of bringing women and beginners into play. Not just children. The property boundary lines of one tee were unclear at best. So, I ran it by the ranger. I made it his decision, as I did 17 years ago. He said not a problem. The ranger then ran it by his boss, and a couple weeks later approved my new layout.
So, due to the audacity of an inexperienced wantabe designer, we now have this disaster. To make it clear, county and Evolve wanted me to be a part of his plan. My response was "I do not want my name on any piece of paper that he has proposed". I choose my partners wisely.

 

[Alobar]

The whole redesign by Evolve, is nothing more than a power grab. His proposal was not put together overnight. He saw, what he perceived as flaws in my new layout (original designer here), then went over our heads to a county administrator that knows nothing of disc golf course design protocol. This was his last window of opportunity.
Mhulkman, safety is my 1st concern in design. The horse trail is well away from the 1st four new holes. These short warm up holes were designed with the intention of bringing women and beginners into play. Not just children. The property boundary lines of one tee were unclear at best. So, I ran it by the ranger. I made it his decision, as I did 17 years ago. He said not a problem. The ranger then ran it by his boss, and a couple weeks later approved my new layout.
So, due to the audacity of an inexperienced wantabe designer, we now have this disaster. To make it clear, county and Evolve wanted me to be a part of his plan. My response was "I do not want my name on any piece of paper that he has proposed". I choose my partners wisely.

Thanks for the rational post and perspective. Good luck to you and the course...

Without taking sides, I've found in my limited time around disc golf (2+ years) that there are a LOT of voices trying to shape courses/the game/the sport, and that the loudest or most aggressive voices are not necessarily the best. If the 'Evolve' group is behind some of the hysterical, borderline posts in this thread, then they have earned the mistrust that is being hurled at them.

Sure makes for an interesting thread tho. opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[Texconsinite]

Dangerous hubris

I've played Zephyr Cove and other Tahoe-area courses, but I dont have a horse in this race. However, I DO believe that HOW you do things matters ALOT.

Zephyr Cove is a Great course, with EPIC views of gorgeous Lake Tahoe, on a VERY interesting piece of land, that seemed like it has room for more holes. Everyone is understandably excited about expanding the course. I don't blame them: Zephyr Cove is cool now, more DG there will be even better.

The issue here is HOW best to expand the course. The course designer and this new guy both presumably think their ideas are the better way to expand.

The original course designers and other locals who have been involved with this course are the only ones who have presented any Facts or substance on here, as well as reasons for why they took issue with the way these other 2 went about things. I would be interested to hearing more from the Designer about his original plan for expanding the course, before this other group hijacked the process, and how the two plans differ. also, they were going through proper channels to get this done before all this hoopla started.

The flip side is, the two who made up the (admittedly very professional-looking) colorful map, have repeatedly claimed that they are victims, they are being misunderstood or that the "truth cant get out", yet have offered no substantial reasons for why their plan is superior, specific safety concerns, or other reason why they found it necessary to go around the course designer who brought them into the project in the first place. Multiple posters have invited you to to explain your side of the story, neither of you have.

If your design is THAT much better than what this original course designer was proposing, then tell us how. From the sounds of it, none of the locals is sold on your plan, so who is this really benefitting? You say everyone who has "heard you out" has liked it, well none of those people seem excited enough about your plan to speak here, and you haven't bothered to share any details either.

NONE OF YOUR BEHAVIOR THUS FAR IS DOING ANYTHING TO DISPROVE WHAT IS BEING SAID ABOUT YOU, or justify the underhanded way you have gone about everything thus far

If you arent willing to share information or answer reasonable questions on YOUR plan, how do you expect anyone to get excited about it? This seems like an obvious power grab to me, and this kind of hubris is NOT good for the DG community, or for your prospects of being involved in any future projects

Considering local clubs typically provide the labor and funds for ongoing course maintenance and improvement, I'm curious as to what your endgame is, Zephyr? Even if you slam your plan through the county, with the 0 approval you have within the local disc golf community, who is going to put in those baskets and maintain this grandiose complex that you and Evolve have proposed?

Good luck repairing the damage you seem to have already done, but you need to change your strategy and start communicating more, and fast, if you want anyone to even consider this or any future plans you make, instead of fighting you on it.

 

[Peterb]

In my opinion the best possible resolution to this would be for Plansky and Co to find another piece of land to work on their vision. The choice of Zephyr Cove is an odd one, given it's pretty high stature in the disc golf course pantheon. The choice of tactics is even worse: going over the heads of those who have put nearly 2 decades of work into a course is pernicious at best.

No one would have had a problem with them creating their own course around the corner in a different park.

 

[Texconsinite]

In my opinion the best possible resolution to this would be for Plansky and Co to find another piece of land to work on their vision. The choice of Zephyr Cove is an odd one, given it's pretty high stature in the disc golf course pantheon. The choice of tactics is even worse: going over the heads of those who have put nearly 2 decades of work into a course is pernicious at best.

No one would have had a problem with them creating their own course around the corner in a different park.

Agreed!

For how much undeveloped space there is within the Tahoe-area, there really aren't very many courses. With all the tourist traffic the area gets in both summer and winter, I would think that even a pay-to-play course on private land could do well out there. If Plansky had gotten his foot in the door to set up a new course somewhere in the area, those same guys with decades of experience would've probably been the first in line to help with design, etc if asked, and happy to do it. Now, nobody wants anything to do with them, regardless of what good ideas they may have, and its potentially slowed down the expansion of a great course. The DG community is not very big, and people wont forget this.

 

[Pure Hyzer]

This is a world class course already and does not need to be changed! Except maybe some new hole maps...

Here's a look at some top players tackling the course in it's current layout - let's keep it this way!

PHP #11b - King Of The Lake, 2015 - Round 2 (Proctor, Locastro, Madruga, Herm, Eshelman)



http://YouTube/PureHyzerProductions | http://facebook.com/PureHyzerProductions

Round 1: https://youtu.be/f2TV6Fjab-M

PHP #1 - King Of The Lake, 2014 - Final Round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shFxOoV-rzk

Sponsors:

Axiom: http://www.axiomdiscs.com
Cali Connection: http://caliconnectiondg.com
Fly Life: http://flylifediscgolf.com

Second Round, Lead Card coverage from King Of The Lake, 2015. Round 2 takes place at the Zephyr Cove Disc Golf Course in Zephyr Cove, Nevada on June 19th, 2015.

MPO Players: James Proctor, Nikko Locastro, David Madruga, Jason Herm, Jere Eshelman

Course:

Zephyr Cove DGC: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2047

 

[BlazedOrangeHat]

A little update on the situation for those interested...

http://www.laketahoenews.net/2015/08/zephyr-cove-disc-golf-in-state-of-flux/