Axis of Evil

[zj10021]

I agree with Jubuttib that the Axis in general does not take power as well as the CMD2 or even the Buzzz. I would notice more difference in the Buzzz's distance when I threw it hard vs. harder than I do with the Axis. When I give it a smooth 85% it goes just about as far as it's going to go when I rip it 100% on the same line. To get more D it needs more height rather than more muscle.

This is why it doesn't work for me. I put all my power into a hit point I am aiming at. The axis does weird things when I do that. The way it spins just doesn't work for someone throwing with high power all the time. It is great for developing players or those at the 350-400ft level. I had to throw at about 65% to see the flight I expected(which can be good).

 

[Crosseyed0811]

I also had some interesting results with the Axis in different wind directions today...I was throwing a long anny shot with a right to left wind that was slightly from the rear. I first threw my Fuse, which in normal conditions is much less stable than my Axis. Due to the wind it did not flip as much as I intended from it's slight anhyzer release, rather it just kind of pushed straight on it's angle and dropped. I threw the Axis the same way and it held it's slight anny line much truer rather than getting pushed by the wind and faded out later as well.

I threw my Axis on a 255 ft hole at a course yesterday. The tee is under a tree canopy and there are trees down the right side of the fairway. The wind was coming from the right to left maybe slightly headwind as well. I threw the Axis (179 Green, only one round on it so not broken in) on a low anny line, figured after it cleared the trees on the right the wind would push it out of the anny and wind up close to the hole. Not a full rip for a 255ft hole of course. To my surprise it held the anny all the way similar to what you said. I would actually go so far as to say once it cleared the tree cover on the right it started moving MORE to the right. Shot wound up 30 to 40 ft to the right of the hole and about 10 ft past it.

I also threw it on the "long" hole of the course (297 ft) into the headwind. Gave it a little hyzer and it flipped up to flat and turned just a little and went a pretty good ways. Much better results than I expected as I even looked to my wife before I threw it and said this isn't going to work but I want to see it for myself. Now the wind also seemed to die down a decent amount right as I started my runup so maybe it was a fluke.

Edit: Just wanted to add that on the 255 ft hole that the Axis annyed way out of, I flicked my new Vector and sat it under the basket. Axis/Vector combo is here to stay for me...

 

[discspeed]

I agree with Jubuttib that the Axis in general does not take power as well as the CMD2 or even the Buzzz. I would notice more difference in the Buzzz's distance when I threw it hard vs. harder than I do with the Axis. When I give it a smooth 85% it goes just about as far as it's going to go when I rip it 100% on the same line. To get more D it needs more height rather than more muscle.

This is why it doesn't work for me. I put all my power into a hit point I am aiming at. The axis does weird things when I do that. The way it spins just doesn't work for someone throwing with high power all the time. It is great for developing players or those at the 350-400ft level. I had to throw at about 65% to see the flight I expected(which can be good).

I have to admit I've yet to see anyone with more power than me throw the Axis in person, though I think Mike C has got a little on me and I didn't see anything weird in his videos. I suspect it has something to do with your personal throwing style, but I'll definitely try to get some big arms to throw my Axis to see how it works for them. I do know that I can't blast line drives with it quite like I did with the Buzzz, but that's shots 350'+. How did it behave for you?

 

[zj10021]

Yeah I dont have super clean form. I have my bad days still. Those were just initial field tests. I'll be throwing it again for sure just to retest my results

 

[zj10021]

So yeah I threw them again. I found a 179g Orange Axis that seemed to fly like my QMS. It was the only one that gave me predictable flight. It was the flattest of the bunch.

I put the Axis up against the Ibex and my QMS. I think I just prefer the Ibex because it has similar movement to the QMS which I know about as well as you(discspeed) know the Buzz. The Axis keeps on the line it is powered on which can be bad for the way I throw. The QMS and Ibex are more predictable for how I throw. However all three discs thrown side by side were generating almost exactly the same shots. The reason I don't like the Axis is because I rely on using my power to pop a disc to flat or turnover. So there are times that my hit point can be a little off which I think the Axis doesn't like. If I try to pop an Axis up, and my release is too far right, the disc will flip and move over right. A QMS or Ibex on the same type of shot will adjust and move forward rather than stay on the right moving line.

 

[jubuttib]

@zj: That's why I still have the C-MD2 in my bag. The Axis is absolutely fantastic on finesse shots (and discspeed said that it's a new type of mid: It's a slightly improved version of the orange FR P-MD2's ) but I really like having a disc I can rip without worrying about it.

 

[jubuttib]

I had a windy round and a half after work today and the Axis didn't work that well, which in seaside area makes it a situational disc :-( Clear Ion worked better in every other wind direction except headwinds, where both got raped. The Ion was way better in winds compared to older Ions.

If you don't like your Axis/ION I could take them off your hands. =)

 

[Fightingthetide1]

It seems pretty clear that the Axis isn't a do-it-all neutral mid, but still an excellent one nonetheless. That's all fine and good, but when you guys are saying that you can't put all of your power into the Axis, how much power are you talking? If I get about 250' of power on my Buzzz on a solid drive, would the Axis be sufficient enough to drop my Buzzz altogether? I guess the only way to tell is to actually buy one, but all of my local shops are sold out (and I need to give it a few weeks before I spend any more $$$ on discs :roll: )

 

[Crosseyed0811]

It seems pretty clear that the Axis isn't a do-it-all neutral mid, but still an excellent one nonetheless. That's all fine and good, but when you guys are saying that you can't put all of your power into the Axis, how much power are you talking? If I get about 250' of power on my Buzzz on a solid drive, would the Axis be sufficient enough to drop my Buzzz altogether? I guess the only way to tell is to actually buy one, but all of my local shops are sold out (and I need to give it a few weeks before I spend any more $$$ on discs :roll: )

I throw mine between 250-300 and haven't noticed any issues of overpowering it yet. Oh and if you haven't looked, Alpine has a better MVP selection than PIAS, and I think about $2 cheaper per disc...

 

[JR]

@zj: That's why I still have the C-MD2 in my bag. The Axis is absolutely fantastic on finesse shots (and discspeed said that it's a new type of mid: It's a slightly improved version of the orange FR P-MD2's ) but I really like having a disc I can rip without worrying about it.

Axis and Ion are more sensitive to the release angle than most discs if you measure how far off sideways you land per a degree of miss in the hyzer angle. No Jub you can't get mine unless you pay me so much that i can get a new undamaged clear Ion and the postages from me to you and vendors to me

Fightingthetide i think that is about the limit of the Axis in having a little margin of error in power generation combined with hyzer angle misses. Actually that is because going beyond 250' starts to create hyzer flip for me and underpowered shots won't flip at least as much that it would cause a lot of miss sideways. It's higher power that starts to multiply flip and sideways miss. I think the Axis would work better for you as an overall mid than the guys that can put it to 330' or more. That was my longest toss in the first session and at that distance i had to put hyzer in and any wrist roll no matter how minimal was magnified in the flip. What's worse is that that always left me with a uncertainty of which angle i should use for which power.

I need to learn the disc better and knowing the sensitivity to wrist rolls keep the power down for consistency. The same for the Ion and on course yesterday that sure created mental pressure. All i had in my head don't overpower, don't overpower, don't overpower and that lead to some fluffed shots. What's funny is that i also had fluffed putts until i noticed that i wasn't accelerating hard enough in the end of the throw. Man the brain can get frazzled quick, when you're tired. I was going 12 hours straight playing right after work. In any case more acquainting is necessary and the approach to driving needs a change from rip it hard to more finessing and that requires a new way to range the shots. In the short term change the way you play is likely to hurt, but it could bring benefits later so i will explore this route more. I had started that path earlier this year so it ain't such a big step, but i'm not comfortable with it yet. In the winds Ridge for straight shots (broken in) gives way more safety margin for user error in powering up and winds vs the Ion. The same goes for Axis vs Buzzz.

 

[discspeed]

@zj: That's why I still have the C-MD2 in my bag. The Axis is absolutely fantastic on finesse shots (and discspeed said that it's a new type of mid: It's a slightly improved version of the orange FR P-MD2's ) but I really like having a disc I can rip without worrying about it.

Axis and Ion are more sensitive to the release angle than most discs if you measure how far off sideways you land per a degree of miss in the hyzer angle.

I have to really think about this one...I think you may be right as the discs will hold exact lines a little more than most discs, but they also still push forward on whatever angle they fly on for me. I suspect this can also be manipulated by adjust the amount of forward momentum vs. spin on your throw because I think I do some of this only semi-consciously when I throw different lines. l know that I feel a pinpoint touch on the Ion and Axis that I don't or haven't with other similar discs, but I'm not always on with them. When I'm not exactly on though they are still fairly forgiving for me, I'm just not getting exactly what I visualize like I can at other times.

 

[discspeed]

I just got my first Axis ace this morning! It was a 261' downhill hole that you have to throw through a gap off the tee and then negotiate some pine trees to get to the basket. My shot was too straight, headed right for the basket, but also right for a tree that just barely takes away the straight line. If there were no trees there my shot would have hit the basket dead on, but I kissed the tree right in front of the basket. The shot was about to fade, so the tree hit just barely knocked it out to the right and it hyzered right back to it's line and into the chains.

 

[7ontheline]

My Axis seems easy to throw 250' stable straight tee shots without turn. However, I must have a mental block or weak tired grip issues because I had just as many early releases today as good shots. My failures occur when I'm trying to muscle it out there for distance on low ceiling drives. I reread several pages here and see others talking about throwing with touch and less than 100% power which is something I had to learn to do with my Comet. Right now I can't see getting anymore D with the Axis than I can get finessing the Comet. I've already gotten fair command of my Comet and it goes just a far, actually further because I have the confidence to hyzer flip it. I like the HSS appeal of the Axis for stable lines but really want the distance I got hucking my Buzzz. Don't get me wrong, if someone had handed me a Axis instead of the Comet and my release issues weren't what they currently are then the Axis might be my do almost everything under 300' disc right now.

Why should I learn this disc when its only going to be able to do the lines I've already have covered with my Comet? More practice? Move on, as in trade? :?

 

[discspeed]

I don't know why, but when I was first warming up today I couldn't get the Axis going. I threw a 280' low ceiling hole 2 times with 2 different Axis and I didn't have a single good shot...I finally realized that I was trying to power them too much like a Buzzz. After that I gave them a bit more finesse and a slightly higher/nose neutral trajectory and parked both discs. From that point on I was good with them.

 

[Rogue9]

What do mean by more finesse?

 

[JR]

@zj: That's why I still have the C-MD2 in my bag. The Axis is absolutely fantastic on finesse shots (and discspeed said that it's a new type of mid: It's a slightly improved version of the orange FR P-MD2's ) but I really like having a disc I can rip without worrying about it.

Axis and Ion are more sensitive to the release angle than most discs if you measure how far off sideways you land per a degree of miss in the hyzer angle.

I have to really think about this one...I think you may be right as the discs will hold exact lines a little more than most discs, but they also still push forward on whatever angle they fly on for me. I suspect this can also be manipulated by adjust the amount of forward momentum vs. spin on your throw because I think I do some of this only semi-consciously when I throw different lines. l know that I feel a pinpoint touch on the Ion and Axis that I don't or haven't with other similar discs, but I'm not always on with them. When I'm not exactly on though they are still fairly forgiving for me, I'm just not getting exactly what I visualize like I can at other times.

Gyro discs hold lines extremely well and are at the top for glide among all of the discs available and fading forward maintaining altitude even when not flat all together minimize power needs and maximize sideways motion. That also means that they punish hard for hyzer angle misses and reward finesse shots with proper point and shoot at the target in a flat shot. Or mildly turning intended throws. Sharp turns in winds are risky. Headwinds especially, because on Saturday Ion and Axis flipped bad in headwinds. I practiced a mando hole that has a sharp turn right and the throws went rollers despite being about 30' high. It's a fairly short hole with lots of sideways motion required.

Straight flat shots and hyzer flipped to flat harder shots are easier to visualize than with other discs, because of the straight line flight. The same reason why i like laser putts as far as the laws of nature allows without excessive blow by distance and power requirement.

 

[discspeed]

What do mean by more finesse?

Throwing slower and smoother rather than a more driver-like delivery.

 

[kcbill]

I don't know why, but when I was first warming up today I couldn't get the Axis going. I threw a 280' low ceiling hole 2 times with 2 different Axis and I didn't have a single good shot...I finally realized that I was trying to power them too much like a Buzzz. After that I gave them a bit more finesse and a slightly higher/nose neutral trajectory and parked both discs. From that point on I was good with them.

in the field i was giving my mids a lot of power and the axis was flipping on me. when i slowed down it flew straight with a slight s curve and was really easy to place and keep low. it doesn't seem as sensitive as a fuse or even a comet but it definitely wants less than full power.

 

[Mike C]

Is that with a flat release or hyzer? If I give it some hyzer I can throw mine as hard as I want without them flipping over.

 

[kcbill]

yeah pretty flat release with a lot of snap. i'll try a more deliberate hyzer release tonight.