Am world BAGGERS

[_MTL_]

i think you would see a drop in attendance for C tiers and maybe B tiers. However, I doubt A and majors would see any difference.
A tiers and majors are about getting the victory not so much payout.

then we should have more exclusive events and less gloriofied club events then.

 

[garublador]

So, IMO, if the AM rewards are taken away, or diminished to the point of attendance dropping to very small numbers, the result is that there are no funds for events at all.

That's an assumption that is no where near proven to be true. There are plenty of examples of other activities where people will pay money with no chance of winning anything. Apparently AM Worlds is a good example:

If people would boycot non payout events, then why did worlds just get over 500 players?

Look at how popular running events are. Here's a local one where 8000 people were willing to pay an average of $38.75 where each division only got prizes for the top 7. They even pay for ringers to be there making winning even harder. Even with $15k in total prize money that's under $2/person entering. Even if there were 100 divisions then less than 10% of the people would get a payout.

http://www.damtodam.com/20K.shtml

So either lots of people are willing to enter contests where they have no chance of winning, or it's way more fun to run 20k than it is to play disc golf.

 

[AndyJB]

I cant wait to see the threads next year when my nine year old daughter wins the Girls ten and under division at Am Worlds. Shes such a bagger. I have personally seen her uae her blone haired blue eyed sweetness to con sone poor noob into buying those three discs she won at the one tournament she entered.

Bagger!

 

[smyith]

I have personally seen her uae her blone haired blue eyed sweetness to con sone poor noob into buying those three discs she won at the one tournament she entered.

Bagger!

huh????

 

[garublador]

I cant wait to see the threads next year when my nine year old daughter wins the Girls ten and under division at Am Worlds. Shes such a bagger. I have personally seen her uae her blone haired blue eyed sweetness to con sone poor noob into buying those three discs she won at the one tournament she entered.

Bagger!

If you want to see bagging, check out David Wiggins Jr.'s performance at the 2004 Worlds.

 

[_MTL_]

If you want to see bagging, check out David Wiggins Jr.'s performance at the 2004 Worlds.

Really?!?

Of all the worlds he played in, you call him out when he was 9 years old and had NEVER played in a worlds and had NO understanding of how much better he was than everyone else?

That's the one you pick?!?!?

 

[garublador]

Really?!?

Of all the worlds he played in, you call him out when he was 9 years old and had NEVER played in a worlds and had NO understanding of how much better he was than everyone else?

That's the one you pick?!?!?

Sorry, I forgot the scarcasm tag. The person I quoted and responded to was joking about kids in age protected divisions bagging and I attempted to add on to his joke by giving a real life example. You obviously can't sandbag in a kids division like that unless you lie about the kid's age.

 

[Chains Bailey]

I think/hope you mean the Wholesale/Retail profit margin covers these things.....not the cash entry fee.

Statements like yours is how the folks that call things the "Am Scam" understand things....and it is not a correct statement.

The statement is 100% correct, whether the wholesale/retail or not...

ALL the things I listed are covered by the AM entries, the Pro entries cover ZERO.

The Pros get 100%+ back on their entry fees AND added money for B/A Tier events comes directly from AM entry fees.


It really is simple - take the list I provided and do the math on two examples:

Event funded by AM entry fees - AM ONLY event.

Event funded by PRO entry fees - PRO ONLY event.


A PRO funded event may look like this - 50 players at $50 = $2500

Now subtract money for:

PDGA event sanctioning fees
ALL printed material --- Tournament specific flyers/programs/scorecards
Player PGDA fees
ALL local series fees
Tournament insurance
Local park fees
ALL CTPs
Trophies
Lunches for ALL, if included in the event
Money added for B and A Tiers - There would be NONE

How much of the original $2500 is left for payout?

 

[wake911]

Where do you see that?

Anytime i see "He's a bagger", discussing people who are getting beat by someone better than them or see others get beat by someone better than them it is frustrating.
This is not truly bagging. (manipulating your play to ensure your rating falls below a specified level in order to compete at a lower level to win) (i.e. throwing a tourney to insure you can compete in INT instead of ADV at a bigger tourney is bagging. Playing in the division of your rating you rightfully earned and whooping everyone at a tourney isn't bagging)

Not everyone brings this across, but too many do. These "bagging threads" always frustrate me for this reason. But I'm definitely the idiot who knew exactly what i was getting into when I opened this thread up and still did it anyway, haha.:wall:

 

[Chains Bailey]

On topic --- Playing well and winning many events will usually bring out the "bagger" comments. IMO, it comes with the territory and boils down to the player being accused reactions coupled with the intention of the accusers.

Personally, I have won many events and never had a rating over 955 --- so, where does that fall on the "bagger" scale?

 

[Halcón]

Where is Chuck Kennedy? Is he ok?

If your rating falls within the guidlines for your chosen division, you're good, no matter what the peanut gallery has to say about "bagging." If you have no rating, you can use your best judgement as to what division you should play in. You could base it off of previous league scores, the course's SSA/SSE, or compare your skills to players you're familiar with, who have known ratings. Of course once you play in a tourney, you'll have a much better idea of where you stand.

It's not rocket science.

 

[rocthecourse]

Sorry, I forgot the scarcasm tag. The person I quoted and responded to was joking about kids in age protected divisions bagging and I attempted to add on to his joke by giving a real life example. You obviously can't sandbag in a kids division like that unless you lie about the kid's age.

No sarcasm tag needed the joke was pretty obvious.

 

[The Hammer]

Anytime i see "He's a bagger", discussing people who are getting beat by someone better than them or see others get beat by someone better than them it is frustrating.
This is not truly bagging. (manipulating your play to ensure your rating falls below a specified level in order to compete at a lower level to win) (i.e. throwing a tourney to insure you can compete in INT instead of ADV at a bigger tourney is bagging. Playing in the division of your rating you rightfully earned and whooping everyone at a tourney isn't bagging)

Not everyone brings this across, but too many do. These "bagging threads" always frustrate me for this reason. But I'm definitely the idiot who knew exactly what i was getting into when I opened this thread up and still did it anyway, haha.:wall:

Well, I would say that I have probably been the most vocal on DGCR about "baggers". I've made it clear that I don't believe it is sandbagging in the truest sense of the word. I call it "bagging" in that it is a douche bag move to keep playing in a division that you always/usually win when there is another higher division in which you are more suited based on a person's proven track record. Rating is only part of this equation.

Also, I'm not the guy that is getting beat and crying "bagger" out of jealousy. Rather, I have already gone through the am ranks, and am expressing this opinion based on my own experiences. If I was jealous, I wouldn't have made the jump to open without bagging the hell out of the major am tournaments. I know that I am not alone in this feeling, as I have heard the same things said on a regular basis when I would attend some big am events, by other competitors. I just happen to be more vocal, and like to use the forums to speak my mind.

I did some thinking last night and realized how much the system really encourages people to stay an Am. Below are the reasons I see:

- Pro entry fees are always more than am entry fees, sometimes more than twice the cost.

- Ams are getting paid in merchandise that can easily be sold and converted into money. I know, because I did this.

- Ams are also getting a guaranteed pay-out at many events in the form of players packs. Those players packs are easily sold off. Pro's usually do not get players packs.

- Having the option of playing both am and pro events (as long as they don't accept cash) allows for a person a greater variety of events they can attend.

- Being a high rated am, you can "bag" am events, and basically be assured cashing in said event.

Honestly, the only fixes I see are:

- ratings cap on advanced (I don't necessarily agree)

- win limit on advanced (win x number of advanced events, you have to move up)

- Trophy only for ams including removal of players packs(remove the financial/material incentive to stay am)

- Level out the pro entry fees.

 

[smyith]

ALL the things I listed are covered by the AM entries, the Pro entries cover ZERO.

i would never play your events. never heard of a TD doing it like this before. ridiculous. and if that is standard for your area, i will gladly avoid playing there.
is this even legal by payout rules?

 

[Dave242]

Honestly, the only fixes I see are:

- ratings cap on advanced (I don't necessarily agree)

- win limit on advanced (win x number of advanced events, you have to move up)

- Trophy only for ams including removal of players packs(remove the financial/material incentive to stay am)

- Level out the pro entry fees.

Another fix is to have a deeper and/or flatter payout curve. If the payout is to 75% and 1st place only makes a few dollars more than the player finishing in the middle of the pack, the top players that are in MA1 for the money will often see the grass as much greener on the Pro side.

 

[Dave242]

i would never play your events. never heard of a TD doing it like this before. ridiculous. and if that is standard for your area, i will gladly avoid playing there.
is this even legal by payout rules?

He (assuming CB is a he) agreed that his semantics were off when I asked for clarification.....and then he kept on going with his inaccurate descriptions of what he does. I doubt he is literally doing that. Even if he is, it is not illegal or against PDGA policy.

 

[The Hammer]

I would like to make one thing clear after getting a couple angry PM's about my "hating". I don't hate these people that I call baggers. I don't know most of them. For instance, the poster on DGCR that I love to razz and call a bagger, Mark H. (1978). I have no problem him as a person. He seems like a genuinely good dude. However, I don't agree with his decision to be a lifetime am. We are all allowed to have opinions. Some of us are just more vocal than others. It has no bearing on what I think of him as a human. I'm just voicing my opinion. It doesn't make me right, wrong, or otherwise. He being a bagger is just my opinion, not a fact. I don't wish him, or Bubba Bagger, any ill will. Anything I say on these boards I would say to a person IRL.

 

[garublador]

I would like to make one thing clear after getting a couple angry PM's about my "hating". I don't hate these people that I call baggers. I don't know most of them. For instance, the poster on DGCR that I love to razz and call a bagger, Mark H. (1978). I have no problem him as a person. He seems like a genuinely good dude. However, I don't agree with his decision to be a lifetime am. We are all allowed to have opinions. Some of us are just more vocal than others. It has no bearing on what I think of him as a human. I'm just voicing my opinion. It doesn't make me right, wrong, or otherwise. He being a bagger is just my opinion, not a fact. I don't wish him, or Bubba Bagger, any ill will. Anything I say on these boards I would say to a person IRL.

remember that calling people names on a public forum like this opens you up to receive the same treatment. It's just as OK for them to treat you like that as it is for you to treat others that way.

 

[The Hammer]

remember that calling people names on a public forum like this opens you up to receive the same treatment. It's just as OK for them to treat you like that as it is for you to treat others that way.

I understand that and I'm not complaining about it. I'm just trying to make it clear that I don't hate these people, I just disagree with their decisions. I have friends that do things I don't agree with, and I tell them. It doesn't make me hate them.

 

[The Hammer]

It is awesome that Steven Jacobs is beating the super bagger. At least he plays pro events during the year, instead of beating up on the local ams.