Am world BAGGERS

[Halcón]

I find it sad that so many people seem to have lost the desire to play in tournaments for the competitive spirit. So many people don't play because they want to see how they stack up to people of similar or better skill, or to test themselves, and for the fun of competing . Rather, they only play if there is something in it for them. They stay in the am ranks because there is no incentive to go pro. That if they went pro now, they wouldn't immediately start winning or cashing for playing average golf. In my eyes, they aren't playing tournaments for the right reasons. They have to have a reason to play in a tougher field. What the hell happened to playing in the division that your skills place you? What happened to pushing yourself to achieve something bigger? What is the fun in winning a division where you are clearly better than most of the field? I don't get it. I would think winning while playing mediocre would be unfulfilling.

This post needs to be blown up, stickied, and made mandatory reading for all tourney players.

 

[JC17393]

I think it goes like this (oversimplified).

Average Am player pays $50 entry fee.

He gets back $50 in players pack and prizes (on average; winners get more, losers get less). Prizes valued at retail. So Ams as a group play, essentially, for free.

TD pays $30 wholesale for that $50 of merchandise.

The $20 difference, the TD uses to pay tournament costs, to pocket, to go to the club or course improvements---or to add cash to the Pro division.

Some Ams cry "Am Scam" because part of their entry went to someone else. Despite the fact that they got their full entry back (at retail).

No "scam" to me --- and I'm a lifelong Am.

I never saw it as a scam either. It wasn't a secret, and usually I got more than my entry fee worth of merchandise. I would sell the merchandise and usually get my entry fee back. Essentially, I was playing the tournament for free. What was there to complain about?

That's what I thought was the case. No real scam. Just people getting upset about things that are rightly none of their concern.

Thanks for the clarity. Carry on with the bagger talk.

 

[DavidSauls]

I find it sad that so many people seem to have lost the desire to play in tournaments for the competitive spirit. So many people don't play because they want to see how they stack up to people of similar or better skill, or to test themselves, and for the fun of competing . Rather, they only play if there is something in it for them. They stay in the am ranks because there is no incentive to go pro. That if they went pro now, they wouldn't immediately start winning or cashing for playing average golf. In my eyes, they aren't playing tournaments for the right reasons. They have to have a reason to play in a tougher field. What the hell happened to playing in the division that your skills place you? What happened to pushing yourself to achieve something bigger? What is the fun in winning a division where you are clearly better than most of the field? I don't get it. I would think winning while playing mediocre would be unfulfilling.

I agree, except for the "so many" part. The original subject of this thread notwithstanding, I just don't see much of it. At least around here---I don't see many people playing in divisions where they regularly win.

Personally, I've got 4 wins in about 80 events, so you can tell where my taste for challenge lies.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

I agree, except for the "so many" part. The original subject of this thread notwithstanding, I just don't see much of it. At least around here---I don't see many people playing in divisions where they regularly win.

Personally, I've got 4 wins in about 80 events, so you can tell where my taste for challenge lies.

Our state does a lot of self policing.

 

[Phantom Discs]

This is a great thread. We have a a lot guys in Central MN that fit in here. They play in intermediate and their ratings above 925. They are putting up scores that would put them in the top 10 in advanced. You guys know who you are. Yes, some of them are on this forum. At the same time intermediate players need to step up their games to compete at a higher level. But these "Sand baggers" or whatever you want to call them. They need to move up to advanced to improve their own game. I have only played in a couple tournaments myself but it was clear as day that some of these guys just want the win and cash. So how about no more payouts in intermediate. Intermediate players are not making a living playing disc golf. Maybe this would make these guys play Advanced. I used to play in a lot of pool tournaments and it was the same. They don't care about the game. I get, who does not want to win. It just tells you a lot about that person. LOSERS!!!! But when I sign up for a tournament I expect to play others at the same level or a bit better.

 

[gcr_russell]

This is a great thread. We have a a lot guys in Central MN that fit in here. They play in intermediate and their ratings above 925. They are putting up scores that would put them in the top 10 in advanced. You guys know who you are. Yes, some of them are on this forum. At the same time intermediate players need to step up their games to compete at a higher level. But these "Sand baggers" or whatever you want to call them. They need to move up to advanced to improve their own game. I have only played in a couple tournaments myself but it was clear as day that some of these guys just want the win and cash. So how about no more payouts in intermediate. Intermediate players are not making a living playing disc golf. Maybe this would make these guys play Advanced. I used to play in a lot of pool tournaments and it was the same. They don't care about the game. I get, who does not want to win. It just tells you a lot about that person. LOSERS!!!! But when I sign up for a tournament I expect to play others at the same level or a bit better.

There is a ratings cap for the intermediate division. This discussion isn't applicable (IMO) for divisions with a ratings cap. If they are below 935 their skills place them in MA2. Just because there is someone better than you in your division doesn't make them sandbaggers. It makes you a whiner.

 

[JC17393]

There is a ratings cap for the intermediate division. This discussion isn't applicable (IMO) for divisions with a ratings cap. If they are below 935 their skills place them in MA2. Just because there is someone better than you in your division doesn't make them sandbaggers. It makes you a whiner.

Bang on. It always amuses me when people rip on players who are playing where their rating places them, and it's a capped division. It's especially amusing when you point out to said complainer that he is eligible for a lower division and could play there rather than be "victimized" by the better player. Their usual response is they play "up" for the challenge of beating better players. Just not too much better, of course.

 

[Dave242]

"merch profit" EQUALS AM ENTRY FEES.

What you saying makes perfect sense and is along the lines with how almost every other TD does things IF you use your rather unique accounting definition I quoted.

I would recommend that you change your terminology since when most people talk about "entry fees" they are talking about the money they paid to enter the tournament......rather than the wholesale/resale differential that is generated with player packs and at the complete opposite end of the tournament in distributing prizes. Entry fees DO NOT equal Profits.*

While I am sure what you are doing is perfectly legit and a great service to your tournament customers, your very confusing explanation is doing no service to you.

-----
*Well, they would be equal in value if you had exactly 50% margins.

 

[smyith]

You can discuss it with anyone you like...and you can use any label you like, but you can not change that it is a FACTUAL representation of fiances at all PDGA events, not a choice of how I do it verse any other TD.

The Wholesale/Retail is irrelevant --- AMs pay for events.

How do pros get 100%+ of their entry fees + any additional money for B and A tiers given back to them in the form of Pro payout? ...and all the fees/costs I listed to run a PDGA event are magically paid for by who? It is mathematically impossible to say the Pros are PAYING for any of the event.

The math is right in front of you AND you can call it "Am Scam" + use the term "merch profit" all day long, no difference in the factual way events are paid for at all.


What you need to realize is that:

"merch profit" EQUALS AM ENTRY FEES.


If I run an event and have NO payout and NO players pack, all AMs are just playing for fun --- there is no "merch profit". The MONEY from the AMs still pays for the entire event.

What do you not understand?

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/2013_Tour_Standards.pdf

see page 3 top chart

btw, the only reason i am calling it the AM Scam is because that what it is known as, and its easier saying AM Scam then writing out a lengthy description

 

[Chains Bailey]

I never saw it as a scam either. It wasn't a secret...

EXACTLY!

It is not a "scam" or secret and is accepted by all players (AM and PRO) who participate in PDGA events.

They can LABEL it with many different cute names and terms, but in the end the result is always the same...AMs pay for entire PDGA events 100%.

I do not have a problem with this known practice, I just do not like others denying the facts, or staying blind to the truth through terminology.

 

[The Hammer]

I agree, except for the "so many" part. The original subject of this thread notwithstanding, I just don't see much of it. At least around here---I don't see many people playing in divisions where they regularly win.

Personally, I've got 4 wins in about 80 events, so you can tell where my taste for challenge lies.

Yes, I suppose you are right. Arizona does a good job of self-policing. There really aren't a lot of people that I see doing this. I guess it is just the few that do are so noticeable that it seems like a massive problem.

 

[Phantom Discs]

There is a ratings cap for the intermediate division. This discussion isn't applicable (IMO) for divisions with a ratings cap. If they are below 935 their skills place them in MA2. Just because there is someone better than you in your division doesn't make them sandbaggers. It makes you a whiner.

Its not about me. But thanks for thinking about me.

 

[smyith]

There is a ratings cap for the intermediate division. This discussion isn't applicable (IMO) for divisions with a ratings cap. If they are below 935 their skills place them in MA2. Just because there is someone better than you in your division doesn't make them sandbaggers. It makes you a whiner.

 

[Dave242]

I think it goes like this (oversimplified).

Average Am player pays $50 entry fee.

He gets back $50 in players pack and prizes (on average; winners get more, losers get less). Prizes valued at retail. So Ams as a group play, essentially, for free.

TD pays $30 wholesale for that $50 of merchandise.

The $20 difference, the TD uses to pay tournament costs, to pocket, to go to the club or course improvements---or to add cash to the Pro division.

Some Ams cry "Am Scam" because part of their entry went to someone else. Despite the fact that they got their full entry back (at retail).

No "scam" to me --- and I'm a lifelong Am.

No....what you descrive is the legitimate way that things work (and that some might mistakenly call an "am scam").

My understanding is that a real am scam looks something more like this example:

Ams pay $30 entry fee to play.
TD takes out $5 cash for their fees/expenses and then another $5 cash to cover the Pros' fees/expenses and add to their purse.
The $20 remaining goes towards player pack and prizes.
100% payout is $20 x number of Ams.....and this is paid out at retail (the legit net basis is $25).

 

[JC17393]

No....what you descrive is the legitimate way that things work (and that some might mistakenly call an "am scam").

My understanding is that a real am scam looks something more like this example:

Ams pay $30 entry fee to play.
TD takes out $5 cash for their fees/expenses and then another $5 cash to cover the Pros' fees/expenses and add to their purse.
The $20 remaining goes towards player pack and prizes.
100% payout is $20 x number of Ams.....and this is paid out at retail (the legit net basis is $25).

I have never, in all my years of playing, seen a tournament run this way. EVER.

 

[Chains Bailey]

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/2013_Tour_Standards.pdf

see page 3 top chart

btw, the only reason i am calling it the AM Scam is because that what it is known as, and its easier saying AM Scam then writing out a lengthy description

You are going to have to point out where that link changes the FACTS I have presented.

Also, you have not, and can not, answer my earlier question --- How do Pros get 100%+ of their entry fees + any additional money for B and A tiers given back to them in the form of Pro payout?

 

[Future_Primitive]

No....what you descrive is the legitimate way that things work (and that some might mistakenly call an "am scam").

My understanding is that a real am scam looks something more like this example:

Ams pay $30 entry fee to play.
TD takes out $5 cash for their fees/expenses and then another $5 cash to cover the Pros' fees/expenses and add to their purse.
The $20 remaining goes towards player pack and prizes.
100% payout is $20 x number of Ams.....and this is paid out at retail (the legit net basis is $25).

I have never, in all my years of playing, seen a tournament run this way. EVER.

I have only seen it once and it was a couple of months ago. $30.00 to enter (AM) and all we got was one tourney stamped Z plastic disc. Now I know which TD and Club to avoid for future events.

 

[Dave242]

I have never, in all my years of playing, seen a tournament run this way. EVER.

Me neither.....and if I did I did not recognize it since the organizers would not be transparent about it. My understanding is that it has happened.

The bigger point though maybe is that is this is the scenario that the uninformed majority think is happening when they hear the term.....even when used jokingly or as a shorthand terminology (like smyith just got caught doing).

 

[Chains Bailey]

I have never, in all my years of playing, seen a tournament run this way. EVER.

Every tournament you have played in IS run this way.

 

[The Hammer]

Also, you have not, and can not, answer my earlier question --- How do Pros get 100%+ of their entry fees + any additional money for B and A tiers given back to them in the form of Pro payout?

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