Am world BAGGERS

[smyith]

I would like to make one thing clear after getting a couple angry PM's about my "hating". I don't hate these people that I call baggers. I don't know most of them. For instance, the poster on DGCR that I love to razz and call a bagger, Mark H. (1978). I have no problem him as a person. He seems like a genuinely good dude. However, I don't agree with his decision to be a lifetime am. We are all allowed to have opinions. Some of us are just more vocal than others. It has no bearing on what I think of him as a human. I'm just voicing my opinion. It doesn't make me right, wrong, or otherwise. He being a bagger is just my opinion, not a fact. I don't wish him, or Bubba Bagger, any ill will. Anything I say on these boards I would say to a person IRL.

people are way too dang sensitive these days.
its the internet, there is no emotion or inflection in a forum post. and too many people add what they assume to be the emotion and/or inflection to someone elses post instead of reading it for what it is.
Hammer, keep on keeping on. don't lament to weak people who are easily offended.

 

[AndyJB]

The only worthwhile and feasible solution posited so far is The Hammers suggestion of a win limit. It could be pretty easy to implement and could add on to the ratings scale.

Novice/Rec: one win, move up (I would reckon a good 99 percent of players do this anyway)
Intermediate: 2 wins at a C or B Tier, or one at an A Tier, move up (again, most do)
Advanced:5 wins at a C or B Tier, 2 A-Tiers or one Worlds or US Title

Those are arbitrary numbers I pulled out of my bum, but you get the point. The sticking point is Advanced. I dont agree with forcing anyone into Open play tehnically. But as long as they refer to it as "Open" and not "Professional" then, verbiage wise if nothing else, it gives some wiggle room.

I firmly, firmly believe in trophy only for all Am events. But I disagree strongly with getting rid of players packs
They are a great memento at the very least, and they are good for companies/sponsors at the very best. Ive never sold a ayers pack disc or gear, even if its something I dont throw. In fact, Im more apt to buy extra tourney stamped discs (for myself, with the Breaker and Echo Star Destroyer I bought at the 303 Ams or for someone else like the Condor for my dad at Colorado States or the Metal Flake Tern at Kooky Noosa for my brother) and in my experience this is often the case with other players too. Ive seen Open players and Am Players buy up any extra players pack goodies.

 

[smyith]

It is awesome that Steven Jacobs is beating the super bagger. At least he plays pro events during the year, instead of beating up on the local ams.

he wanted one more chance at Am Nats and Am Worlds. He is moving up after this event.

 

[Chains Bailey]

i would never play your events. never heard of a TD doing it like this before. ridiculous. and if that is standard for your area, i will gladly avoid playing there.
is this even legal by payout rules?

You do not understand that almost all PDGA events financially end up as I already explained. The "standard" is happening in every area, not just here...any event you play in (Unless heavily sponsored) balances out the same way.

You can choose not to see it, but it is a fact.

I can state it differently and maybe you will understand...AMs entry fees (Money) pay for the entire event --- the Pros AND their payout too.

You should stop playing any PDGA events in the future, because that "ridiculous" way I run events is the standard for the majority of all events.

 

[The Hammer]

he wanted one more chance at Am Nats and Am Worlds. He is moving up after this event.

He gets it. :clap:

 

[DavidSauls]

Honestly, the only fixes I see are:

- ratings cap on advanced (I don't necessarily agree)

- win limit on advanced (win x number of advanced events, you have to move up)

- Trophy only for ams including removal of players packs(remove the financial/material incentive to stay am)

- Level out the pro entry fees.

Another, more difficult to achieve:

Make the Pro division more enticing.

Presumably by more sponsorships, pro-only exclusive tournaments (as the old USDGC), or other enhancements that lure Ams up, rather than trying to push them up.

 

[smyith]

You do not understand that almost all PDGA events financially end up as I already explained. The "standard" is happening in every area, not just here...any event you play in (Unless heavily sponsored) balances out the same way.

You can choose not to see it, but it is a fact.

I can state it differently and maybe you will understand...AMs entry fees (Money) pay for the entire event for the Pros AND their payout too.

You should stop playing any PDGA events in the future, because that "ridiculous" way I run events is the standard for the majority of all events.

it is not standard. the am scam is standard. you are directly passing all costs on to the AMs. I have discussed this with a few of the local TDs around here, and that is not how they do it. they stick to the traditional am scam (merch profit) to do what you are doing. you can try to justify yourself all you want, doesn't change that you are a dbag for a TD

 

[scarpfish]

The only worthwhile and feasible solution posited so far is The Hammers suggestion of a win limit. It could be pretty easy to implement and could add on to the ratings scale.

Wins, particularly in the lower divisions, don't mean crap, as the competition level between one tournament and another is vastly different. If everybody was forced to move up after so many wins, nearly everyone would eventually end up in Open.

 

[The Hammer]

The only worthwhile and feasible solution posited so far is The Hammers suggestion of a win limit. It could be pretty easy to implement and could add on to the ratings scale.

Novice/Rec: one win, move up (I would reckon a good 99 percent of players do this anyway)
Intermediate: 2 wins at a C or B Tier, or one at an A Tier, move up (again, most do)
Advanced:5 wins at a C or B Tier, 2 A-Tiers or one Worlds or US Title

Those are arbitrary numbers I pulled out of my bum, but you get the point. The sticking point is Advanced. I dont agree with forcing anyone into Open play tehnically. But as long as they refer to it as "Open" and not "Professional" then, verbiage wise if nothing else, it gives some wiggle room.

I firmly, firmly believe in trophy only for all Am events. But I disagree strongly with getting rid of players packs
They are a great memento at the very least, and they are good for companies/sponsors at the very best. Ive never sold a ayers pack disc or gear, even if its something I dont throw. In fact, Im more apt to buy extra tourney stamped discs (for myself, with the Breaker and Echo Star Destroyer I bought at the 303 Ams or for someone else like the Condor for my dad at Colorado States or the Metal Flake Tern at Kooky Noosa for my brother) and in my experience this is often the case with other players too. Ive seen Open players and Am Players buy up any extra players pack goodies.

Regarding players packs: Its cool when they are memento things like tourney stamped shirts and discs. The thing is that TD's keep trying to out do each other. Players packs have become these things that have $100+ in merchandise that is just fluff. I remember going to Am Nats, and getting a disc with our photo on it (awesome), a few shirts (cool), and a couple unreleased discs that I was able to sell for over $100/each (now we are getting into financial gain). IMO, this constant one-ups-manship is what is encouraging ams to never move up. The spirit and intent is great, but it has turned into a give me more mentality among the am ranks.

 

[The Hammer]

Another, more difficult to achieve:

Make the Pro division more enticing.

Presumably by more sponsorships, pro-only exclusive tournaments (as the old USDGC), or other enhancements that lure Ams up, rather than trying to push them up.

That's is a great idea. The question becomes how to do it.

 

[The Hammer]

Wins, particularly in the lower divisions, don't mean crap, as the competition level between one tournament and another is vastly different. If everybody was forced to move up after so many wins, nearly everyone would eventually end up in Open.

The lower tier tournaments I agree don't mean much. But, what about A-tiers, and Am Majors?

 

[smyith]

i think peter shive had it right a few years ago. split the pDGA. a for-profit Pro side and a non-profit AM side. that would allow the Pro side to grow and get bigger payouts. this to my understand is similar to how the PGA does it. it would also allow for the AM side to focus on the AMs. for future growth the two cannot remain one entity.
and much like the PGA does it, you make players have to work their way up through the AM side to earn a tour card.

*DISCLAIMER*
My understanding the the PGA organization as a whole is very very basic, and I may not be entirely accurate.

 

[tarel]

this thread should be called "people who wish they played good enough to bag in am worlds"

 

[DavidSauls]

That's is a great idea. The question becomes how to do it.

Ah, yes. One hope is that the sport may one day grow enough to bring in outside money. I don't know if it will ever happen, but it would be sweet if "pro" was an accomplishment, not just a selection.

In the meantime, despite the "Am scam" rants, Ams playing for prizes, and the money generated by TDs handling merchandise for them, props up the pros. So paradoxically, keeping more players in the Am ranks, and staying away from trophy-only, is the going model for make Pro ranks more attractive. Go figure.

 

[Chains Bailey]

it is not standard. the am scam is standard. you are directly passing all costs on to the AMs. I have discussed this with a few of the local TDs around here, and that is not how they do it. they stick to the traditional am scam (merch profit) to do what you are doing. you can try to justify yourself all you want, doesn't change that you are a dbag for a TD

You can discuss it with anyone you like...and you can use any label you like, but you can not change that it is a FACTUAL representation of fiances at all PDGA events, not a choice of how I do it verse any other TD.

The Wholesale/Retail is irrelevant --- AMs pay for events.

How do pros get 100%+ of their entry fees + any additional money for B and A tiers given back to them in the form of Pro payout? ...and all the fees/costs I listed to run a PDGA event are magically paid for by who? It is mathematically impossible to say the Pros are PAYING for any of the event.

The math is right in front of you AND you can call it "Am Scam" + use the term "merch profit" all day long, no difference in the factual way events are paid for at all.


What you need to realize is that:

"merch profit" EQUALS AM ENTRY FEES.


If I run an event and have NO payout and NO players pack, all AMs are just playing for fun --- there is no "merch profit". The MONEY from the AMs still pays for the entire event.

What do you not understand?

 

[JC17393]

Could someone explain the term "am scam"? I mean, I think I know what it refers to, and if I'm correct, I'm not sure what the "scam" is. But I'm open to the idea that I have the wrong impression of what exactly the "am scam" is.

 

[The Hammer]

I find it sad that so many people seem to have lost the desire to play in tournaments for the competitive spirit. So many people don't play because they want to see how they stack up to people of similar or better skill, or to test themselves, and for the fun of competing . Rather, they only play if there is something in it for them. They stay in the am ranks because there is no incentive to go pro. That if they went pro now, they wouldn't immediately start winning or cashing for playing average golf. In my eyes, they aren't playing tournaments for the right reasons. They have to have a reason to play in a tougher field. What the hell happened to playing in the division that your skills place you? What happened to pushing yourself to achieve something bigger? What is the fun in winning a division where you are clearly better than most of the field? I don't get it. I would think winning while playing mediocre would be unfulfilling.

 

[DavidSauls]

Where is Chuck Kennedy? Is he ok?

Possbly in Emporia this week.

 

[DavidSauls]

Could someone explain the term "am scam"? I mean, I think I know what it refers to, and if I'm correct, I'm not sure what the "scam" is. But I'm open to the idea that I have the wrong impression of what exactly the "am scam" is.

I think it goes like this (oversimplified).

Average Am player pays $50 entry fee.

He gets back $50 in players pack and prizes (on average; winners get more, losers get less). Prizes valued at retail. So Ams as a group play, essentially, for free.

TD pays $30 wholesale for that $50 of merchandise.

The $20 difference, the TD uses to pay tournament costs, to pocket, to go to the club or course improvements---or to add cash to the Pro division.

Some Ams cry "Am Scam" because part of their entry went to someone else. Despite the fact that they got their full entry back (at retail).

No "scam" to me --- and I'm a lifelong Am.

 

[The Hammer]

I think it goes like this (oversimplified).

Average Am player pays $50 entry fee.

He gets back $50 in players pack and prizes (on average; winners get more, losers get less). Prizes valued at retail. So Ams as a group play, essentially, for free.

TD pays $30 wholesale for that $50 of merchandise.

The $20 difference, the TD uses to pay tournament costs, to pocket, to go to the club or course improvements---or to add cash to the Pro division.

Some Ams cry "Am Scam" because part of their entry went to someone else. Despite the fact that they got their full entry back (at retail).

No "scam" to me --- and I'm a lifelong Am.

I never saw it as a scam either. It wasn't a secret, and usually I got more than my entry fee worth of merchandise. I would sell the merchandise and usually get my entry fee back. Essentially, I was playing the tournament for free. What was there to complain about?