What % of Disc Golfers Cheat

[iacas]

I won't deny that I started this thread because of the many times people implied that disc golfers would cheat in the "disc count limit" thread. Dead on. That's absolutely why I started this thread. It has nothing to do with not being able to "let go" though. It's just an off-shoot of some points raised in the other thread.

Also, I didn't attempt to steer the answers in any direction. The words in the poll just put words to the percentages: 61-90 is "the majority." 31-60 is "about half." 11-30 is around 20, or 1 out of 5, so "someone on the card."

I figured that the answers would be pretty low. I've not witnessed a ton of cheating in my play, and suspected most others haven't either. That's why I was surprised to keep hearing in the other thread about how dishonest disc golfers are, or how they can't be trusted to play a legal number of discs in the hypothetical future with the hypothetical disc limit in place.

I'm surprised the votes are as high as they are. 27 people have voted for 31%+. Yikes. (Perhaps they're just trolling and clicking high numbers, I don't know. This is hardly scientific.)

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I know one thing, anyone that gets the reputation of cheating, most specifically pencil whipping, is pretty much labeled for life. It's pretty hard to repair that kind of violation of trust. They're under a microscope after that.

This. Know it WAAAY too well, having to call someone out publicly.

 

[DavidSauls]

iacas, I appreciate the fact that you started this thread, at least somewhat limiting thread drift in the other.

I think the high numbers result, in part, from the varying degrees of "cheating", and a lot of people using a broad definition. Much broader than the way it was used in the disc-limit thread, which was a deliberate attempt to gain advantage.

But I also think there's a bit of an apple-vs.-oranges discrepancy. Pencil-whipping is the highest degree of cheating, but limited because of the rules and procedures we have to monitor it. The rulebook says people will call out their score aloud, and that scorekeeping duties will be shared. It makes it a little trickier to "forget" a stroke or two. A borderline O.B. disc, another blatant case because a definite score difference is involved, has a rule that if the thrower moves it before the group can make a decision, the rule is against the thrower.

How many players would cheat if each player kept his own scorecard, without review, and made O.B. judgments without a group decision? I don't know, but I believe it would be more than cheat on these rules now.

We believe in the honor system, but often in a Reaganesque "trust, but verified" fashion.

Which is why some of think that if you have a rule, wherein cheating gains a significant advantage, you need to address monitoring, enforcement, & penalties.

 

[lyleoross]

Whenever I don't get the answer I want it's always because someone's trolling, never because I'm wrong.

Marcus Welby, M.D.

I've not played in a single tournament where I didn't see at least one rules violation, usually of the "I don't think it's important type." But I've seen stroke saving moves enough to know it happens, and most of the people who posted comments specifically replied that they'd seen it. I'm pretty comfy that it happens often enough.

The verbiage associated with the frequency of cheating escalated, becoming harsher and using stronger terms as it went. In polling, depending on the person's perspective, this drives responses. If you dislike disc golf the negative verbiage will pull you to it. It confirms your view point. If you like disc golf, you will be pulled to the least negative verbiage. Whether the language use was intentional or not, that is the impact. That's why honest pollsters use neutral language if they want honest replies.

The human mind is a curious thing. One of the most effective smoking campaigns ever hid the word cancer in images in the ad. Who'd a thunk.

 

[lyleoross]

iacas, I appreciate the fact that you started this thread, at least somewhat limiting thread drift in the other.

I think the high numbers result, in part, from the varying degrees of "cheating", and a lot of people using a broad definition. Much broader than the way it was used in the disc-limit thread, which was a deliberate attempt to gain advantage.

But I also think there's a bit of an apple-vs.-oranges discrepancy. Pencil-whipping is the highest degree of cheating, but limited because of the rules and procedures we have to monitor it. The rulebook says people will call out their score aloud, and that scorekeeping duties will be shared. It makes it a little trickier to "forget" a stroke or two. A borderline O.B. disc, another blatant case because a definite score difference is involved, has a rule that if the thrower moves it before the group can make a decision, the rule is against the thrower.

How many players would cheat if each player kept his own scorecard, without review, and made O.B. judgments without a group decision? I don't know, but I believe it would be more than cheat on these rules now.

We believe in the honor system, but often in a Reaganesque "trust, but verified" fashion.

Which is why some of think that if you have a rule, wherein cheating gains a significant advantage, you need to address monitoring, enforcement, & penalties.

Well said.

 

[teemkey]

I answered with the assumption that using the word "cheat" means intentionally violating the rules for a competitive advantage.

For example, a player throwing a 300' upshot in an open field plants 1" off his lie -- not cheating. A player foot faults, misses his putt, but the card decides not to call the violation due to the miss -- cheating.

 

[lyleoross]

I answered with the assumption that using the word "cheat" means intentionally violating the rules for a competitive advantage.

For example, a player throwing a 300' upshot in an open field plants 1" off his lie -- not cheating. A player foot faults, misses his putt, but the card decides not to call the violation due to the miss -- cheating.

Case 1 depends. You're making the same argument the PDGA and others make. Getting that foot placement takes focus away from your drive. Focus that can result in a poorer drive. It is to the players advantage to be close enough. Personally, I find it to be the most abused rule with the greatest impact on outcomes. Tis why I support Stand and Deliver.

See how smoothly I integrated that huge thread drift on one of the most argued topics in DG.

 

[BrotherDave]

If you're not playing strictly by the book, to the letter, than you are cheating in some form or another. The only question is the degree. What percentage of players have abstained from calling a foot fault on an opponent because he missed or didn't gain a conceivable advantage with the violation? Every omission is cheating and you are highly delusional if you don't think this form of cheating is rampant in tournaments, mostly b/c people are too busy worrying about their game instead of carrying out their duty to self-officiate others. If anything, this poll looks way nicer than it should.

 

[teemkey]

Case 1 depends. You're making the same argument the PDGA and others make. Getting that foot placement takes focus away from your drive. Focus that can result in a poorer drive. It is to the players advantage to be close enough. Personally, I find it to be the most abused rule with the greatest impact on outcomes. Tis why I support Stand and Deliver.

See how smoothly I integrated that huge thread drift on one of the most argued topics in DG.

I didn't say missing your mark wasn't a violation, I said it wasn't an intentional violation to gain a competitive advantage.

 

[scarpfish]

Cheating with malicious intent, not too damn many.

Cheating due to ignorance of the rules, I'd say more than half.

 

[thrembo]

Ignorance of the rules doesn't really fit into the definition of cheating. it would seem that it would have to be intentional to be considered cheating. Ignorance of the rules is well, ignorance. That's not to say that you still might get flagged for rules violations as ignorance of the law is no excuse!

 

[Chee]

Pet Peeves

"If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying...."

I have always hated that statement. You see it in every sport now. Hockey is full of penalties which aren't called to keep the flow of the game blah blah blah. Football has holding on EVERY play and that is accepted. Let's not get started on basketball with travelling......

It has been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember. The mentality of "if I can get away with it, then it's fair". To me it's about integrity and respect. You have to respect the rules and the players you are playing with. I hate having to call people out on stuff, but if I break a rule I call myself out on it and expect other players to honestly call me out. No need for drama.

I play ball golf 2-3 times a year with a friend. We are on the same page. We play to try to make some shots and have a good time. There is no reason to cheat our scores because we aren't trying to impress anyone. But, we play with his dad and usually one of his dad's work friends. They are always good to talk to and nice, but I always notice the cheating. And it always makes me wonder what they are trying to gain? Bragging rights? Over a casual game?

I know this sounds all moral high ground and preachy, but disc golf is an individual sport where when you cheat you are simply cheating yourself. I play for myself, to try to achieve something. (obviously I mean in general, cuz I am really new to disc golf, haha).

I am really new, so have not played a tournament at this point, but if players are going into that playing environment, my take is that you call faults and expect them called on you. No drama. Because otherwise what is the point? You train and practice to play a game that is defined by a set of rules. So use those rules to conduct the game. Seems simple to me and anyone abusing it is childish.

Do I understand innocent stuff, like inadvertent foot faults, etc. Sure. But if I foot fault......then I foot fault. Move on. Try to get better. Done.

 

[simpletwist]

I play my own game and not worry about anyone else. Cheaters only cheat themselves. And when I keep score I write whatever you tell me. So I think you threw 4 but you say 3, I write 3 and move on. I believe in karma and the cheater will get cheated.

 

[rj29274]

Foot Fault!

 

[DanJon]

Cheating with malicious intent, not too damn many.

Cheating due to ignorance of the rules, I'd say more than half.

Yes, and how many times have you seen people call imaginary rules violations due to ignorance of said rules?

Could that be considered cheating?

And are those same people responding to this poll?

 

[93EXCivic]

"If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying...."

I have always hated that statement. You see it in every sport now. Hockey is full of penalties which aren't called to keep the flow of the game blah blah blah. Football has holding on EVERY play and that is accepted. Let's not get started on basketball with travelling......

It has been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember. The mentality of "if I can get away with it, then it's fair". To me it's about integrity and respect. You have to respect the rules and the players you are playing with. I hate having to call people out on stuff, but if I break a rule I call myself out on it and expect other players to honestly call me out. No need for drama.

I have noticed compared to other sports both the main disc sports (ultimate and disc golf) that it seems cheating is much much less common then in other sports. I honestly think that is due to the self-policing nature of the sport.

I played soccer for most of life and I had all kinds of fun ways of creatively slowing down an opponent. I just thought of it as part of the game. If you get caught you get caught but to me winning was more important then fair play. Fair play was the refs job.

For some reason I have never felt the same way about ultimate or disc golf. Probably because fair play and self-policing are more important parts of the game.

 

[lyleoross]

I didn't say missing your mark wasn't a violation, I said it wasn't an intentional violation to gain a competitive advantage.

I get your point, and I know I'm parsing words, but intentionally not looking at your foot placement to get it right is intentional.

Unintentional mistakes happen, untintentional foot placements happen. If a player is looking at his foot placement, goes to put it where it belongs, gets hit with a gust of wind, such that he misses said placement - that is unintentional. If a player sort of lines up, and never looks, assuming he is going to be "close enough," he is cheating to gain an advantage. We may not put that on par with pencil whipping, indeed, we don't by our actions and acceptance, but it is cheating to gain an advantage over the guys we are playing against. I would agree that the advantage is less than that of pencil whipping, or possibly even of pulling your foot twelve inches off the mark when the disc is too far in the schule, but it is still cheating.

 

[lyleoross]

"If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying...."

I have always hated that statement. You see it in every sport now. Hockey is full of penalties which aren't called to keep the flow of the game blah blah blah. Football has holding on EVERY play and that is accepted. Let's not get started on basketball with travelling......

It has been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember. The mentality of "if I can get away with it, then it's fair". To me it's about integrity and respect. You have to respect the rules and the players you are playing with. I hate having to call people out on stuff, but if I break a rule I call myself out on it and expect other players to honestly call me out. No need for drama.

I play ball golf 2-3 times a year with a friend. We are on the same page. We play to try to make some shots and have a good time. There is no reason to cheat our scores because we aren't trying to impress anyone. But, we play with his dad and usually one of his dad's work friends. They are always good to talk to and nice, but I always notice the cheating. And it always makes me wonder what they are trying to gain? Bragging rights? Over a casual game?

I know this sounds all moral high ground and preachy, but disc golf is an individual sport where when you cheat you are simply cheating yourself. I play for myself, to try to achieve something. (obviously I mean in general, cuz I am really new to disc golf, haha).

I am really new, so have not played a tournament at this point, but if players are going into that playing environment, my take is that you call faults and expect them called on you. No drama. Because otherwise what is the point? You train and practice to play a game that is defined by a set of rules. So use those rules to conduct the game. Seems simple to me and anyone abusing it is childish.

Do I understand innocent stuff, like inadvertent foot faults, etc. Sure. But if I foot fault......then I foot fault. Move on. Try to get better. Done.

Nope, no moral high ground, just doing it right. I've played, coached, and refereed soccer. Cheating is a solid part of the game and if you call stricktly by the rules, even the referee assignors get mad at you. The fact is that if we called the cheating in the sport, defenders would have to lay off players on the ball a bit, opeing up more shots and much more scoring, most of it exciting because it would be based on beating a defender. It's dumb as hell and hurts the game.

 

[Steve West]

I play my own game and not worry about anyone else. Cheaters only cheat themselves. And when I keep score I write whatever you tell me. So I think you threw 4 but you say 3, I write 3 and move on. I believe in karma and the cheater will get cheated.

You're not doing anybody any favors that way.

I have sometimes called out the wrong score; when I forgot a short tree hit or I was thinking about another hole. I was glad when the scorekeeper double checked and helped me get it right.

You are there to make sure you and the other players write down the correct score. Frankly, it comes across as selfish or cowardly to shirk that duty.

 

[jeffmonty]

You're not doing anybody any favors that way.

I have sometimes called out the wrong score; when I forgot a short tree hit or I was thinking about another hole. I was glad when the scorekeeper double checked and helped me get it right.

You are there to make sure you and the other players write down the correct score. Frankly, it comes across as selfish or cowardly to shirk that duty.

Thanks, Steve. Your response saved me the trouble of typing out the same thing.

Karma may get the cheater later, but if you ignore it up front, an innocent party that is beat by a stroke is the one being punished now.