PDGA Updates Gender Policy

[teemkey]

When the Left hears something they don't like, they attack it as 'uninformed'. NovaP called my statement of a fact 'uniformed' because it was not in lockstep with her views. It was a personal attack and an attempt to 'refute' my facts because she cannot refute the fact that people with XX chromosomes are female and people with XY chromosomes are males.

Dude, she cited five articles, and you didn't address any of them.

 

[Hoeschel]

To the people that are strongly oppose to this: What are your thoughts on hormone doping, like men taking hgh? Should this not be at least as big of a concern to you? If fairness above all is the main concern, why not lobby for doping tests?

 

[davetherocketguy]

To the people that are strongly oppose to this: What are your thoughts on hormone doping, like men taking hgh? Should this not be at least as big of a concern to you? If fairness above all is the main concern, why not lobby for doping tests?

Because I am going to bet the PDGA doesn't have the cash for that.

 

[Suspect]

If it doesn't effect me then do whatever the hell you want.

Just being curious here, I'm a male and lets say I don't have the operation where I still keep my kick stand and the twins playpen, could I join a female division? Lets say I have been seeing a Psych for years and I believe I am a girl trapped in a mans body. What is the ruling here?

I think its an interesting discussion, but I feel like if its not hurting me I don't give a rats ass. People who truly do switch genders after birth already have it tough mentally. I am an anxious person and I know I get in my own head constantly.

More people who play the better. I don't care if you are. I just want to improve my game and have fun doing it. Its why I am here. Religion, sexual issues, real life go away when I am out there.

 

[Therealgoat]

It does seem to come down to a fear of the unknown. We can all probably agree that we understand frustratingly little about the way our own bodies actually work, from consciousness to our seemingly individual microbiomes. Stay tuned to the science, folks, because it changes all the time. This discussion should be an evolving one as new developments are made, theories tested, etc, but I think it's blown way out of proportion, at least with how much of a non-issue it is in this sport.

Nova P's greatest arguments yet have been to remain open to new ideas/change, and I enjoy soaking up the progress we make as a species across all fields. We should all feel lucky that we live in a time period of great progress, but prior to paying the consequences for how quickly we've gotten there. So maybe just enjoy throwing your own plastic more, and worry about who throws theirs less.

If you'd like some great articles on a variety of subjects (I'm partial to physics, but gender issues are in there) try https://aeon.co/essays

 

[davetherocketguy]

So what's the solution for the PDGA then if it's not OK to have a female protected division with just those born with XX chromosomes? Just make a gazillion more different divisions? The number of divisions we have is a little ridiculous anyways - don't ya think?

 

[biscoe]

Just being curious here, I'm a male and lets say I don't have the operation where I still keep my kick stand and the twins playpen, could I join a female division? Lets say I have been seeing a Psych for years and I believe I am a girl trapped in a mans body. What is the ruling here?

The PDGA is going to recognize you as the gender you chose when joining- pretty simple. IMO any other policy is unenforceable regardless of people's personal feelings on the issue. Fairness/justice/personal outrage/whatever is not the only factor at work- policies must be enforceable without being discriminatory.

 

[DavidSauls]

Just being curious here, I'm a male and lets say I don't have the operation where I still keep my kick stand and the twins playpen, could I join a female division? Lets say I have been seeing a Psych for years and I believe I am a girl trapped in a mans body. What is the ruling here?

The ruling is "no".

The guidelines for qualifying for the female division are much more stringent than that. You can't just "feel" or "identify" and get in.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Okay, this will cross into politics, but I no longer care. I'm tired of being attacked and lied about.

Dr. Carl Sagan one said "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." The Left is constantly saying "keep and open mind", but what they really mean is "change your mind to agree with what we say, or else."

The Left uses political correctness as a weapon, to stifle debate and silence those who are not in jackbooted lockstep with their political views. Political correctness is not a 1980s thing, it is a very real threat to the expression of the truth and facts TODAY.

When the Left hears something they don't like, they attack it as 'uninformed'. NovaP called my statement of a fact 'uniformed' because it was not in lockstep with her views. It was a personal attack and an attempt to 'refute' my facts because she cannot refute the fact that people with XX chromosomes are female and people with XY chromosomes are males. It is NovaP that made the accusation about another's thinking when faced with a fact that disagrees with her politically correct views.

It is NOT a travesty to stand up against political correctness in the name of the Truth. Political correctness, especially as weaponized and used by the Left, is an attempt to suppress the Truth, and it is going to lead to something much, much worse than the debate on this thread if people of integrity do not stand up against it and call it out for what it is.

What does "the Truth" mean?

 

[DavidSauls]

So what's the solution for the PDGA then if it's not OK to have a female protected division with just those born with XX chromosomes? Just make a gazillion more different divisions? The number of divisions we have is a little ridiculous anyways - don't ya think?

A division for those with XX chromosomes, plus a very limited number of exceptions to the XX.

 

[biscoe]

The ruling is "no".

The guidelines for qualifying for the female division are much more stringent than that. You can't just "feel" or "identify" and get in.

Effectively you can. The PDGA will be (and has in the past) taking in good faith that a players declaration is truthful- anything else can be construed as discriminatory. This is what i get from my discussions with a Medical Committee member.

 

[Nova P]

If it doesn't effect me then do whatever the hell you want.

Just being curious here, I'm a male and lets say I don't have the operation where I still keep my kick stand and the twins playpen, could I join a female division? Lets say I have been seeing a Psych for years and I believe I am a girl trapped in a mans body. What is the ruling here?

If you join the PDGA after social, legal, and hormonal transition, but have opted not for gender reassignment surgery (the bit where your junk goes from an outtie to an innie), and tick "F" on the form for "female," when you join the organization, the PDGA will take your word for it. I have been told by a member of the Board and the Medical Committee that the PDGA intends to assume good faith on the part of the person joining up, and that they consider the spectre of some fraud joining up and declaring as female just to stomp some women into the mud to be a remote one. (paraphrased)

If you are a member of the PDGA and you have already ticked "M" on the box for male, and you transition to female after joining, you will need to complete the requirements listed on the PDGA Gender Reclassification Form and submit it to the Medical Committee before playing in the female divisions. There are two paths to compliance for those transitioning from male to female: the surgical route, or the hormonal route without surgery.

The latter is covered in section 2A of the form, which reads:

Attach the following documentation:

☐ Copy of national identification (e.g. passport, driver's licence, national ID card)

☐ Physician statement confirming continued and uninterrupted hormone treatment for at least 12 months to the current date, including testosterone blood level results – Must include at least 3 test results covering a period of at least 12 months to the current date.

I attest that I intend to continue hormone treatment sufficient to ensure my testosterone levels comply with IOC recommended levels (currently less than 10nmol/L). If I interrupt or discontinue treatment, I will promptly inform the PDGA and will not compete in a gender protected division at a PDGA event

The ID is to show that one has completed the legal requirement for recognition as female in their jurisdiction. The blood testing is to show that the levels of testosterone in the blood are suppressed and within the acceptable female range (on the low end of it, at that), and the last bit is an ongoing commitment to maintain that hormonal eligibility.


----------
links:

https://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_gender_reclassification_form_apr_2019.pdf

https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-protected-divisions-eligibility-policy

 

[ru4por]

Okay, this will cross into politics, but I no longer care. I'm tired of being attacked and lied about.

Dr. Carl Sagan one said "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." The Left is constantly saying "keep and open mind", but what they really mean is "change your mind to agree with what we say, or else."

The Left uses political correctness as a weapon, to stifle debate and silence those who are not in jackbooted lockstep with their political views. Political correctness is not a 1980s thing, it is a very real threat to the expression of the truth and facts TODAY.

When the Left hears something they don't like, they attack it as 'uninformed'. NovaP called my statement of a fact 'uniformed' because it was not in lockstep with her views. It was a personal attack and an attempt to 'refute' my facts because she cannot refute the fact that people with XX chromosomes are female and people with XY chromosomes are males. It is NovaP that made the accusation about another's thinking when faced with a fact that disagrees with her politically correct views.

It is NOT a travesty to stand up against political correctness in the name of the Truth. Political correctness, especially as weaponized and used by the Left, is an attempt to suppress the Truth, and it is going to lead to something much, much worse than the debate on this thread if people of integrity do not stand up against it and call it out for what it is.

This goes a long way in explaining your take on this. (my grandfather's as well). Throwing around terms like "Left" and "political correctness" are virtually undefinable and easy to use in a disagreement. It seems apparent that fear drives your beliefs and anything that scares you is an affront to humanity. You have no skin in the game, yet you feel the need to suppress rights from others that do. Live and let live is not a politically correct philosophy, but a product of humanity and critical thinking. Your politics are divisive and unproductive, but you have the right to them. I just wish you did not feel the need to demand they be correct and others should subscribe to them.

Life is hopefully very long and I have found you will run into people that don't see the world your way. Letting everyone live their own lives, even when it flies in direct opposition to what you believe, is a true measure of character.

 

[_MTL_]

I don't know about ya'll, but I'm not taking 12 months of female hormones to get beat by Paige Pierce.

 

[_MTL_]

On a serious note, I find this conversation pretty laughable.

Regardless of your personal opinions on the decision of the PDGA, this is in line with the Olympics. If we want to continue to grow and be recognized by major sports groups, have national attention, we should not be not in line with those standards.

Quite simply, if you are against the PDGA following the Olympic standard and have ever commented about the sport needing to grow, you are a hypocrite.

 

[SD86]

This goes a long way in explaining your take on this. (my grandfather's as well). Throwing around terms like "Left" and "political correctness" are virtually undefinable and easy to use in a disagreement. It seems apparent that fear drives your beliefs and anything that scares you is an affront to humanity. You have no skin in the game, yet you feel the need to suppress rights from others that do. Live and let live is not a politically correct philosophy, but a product of humanity and critical thinking. Your politics are divisive and unproductive, but you have the right to them. I just wish you did not feel the need to demand they be correct and others should subscribe to them.

Life is hopefully very long and I have found you will run into people that don't see the world your way. Letting everyone live their own lives, even when it flies in direct opposition to what you believe, is a true measure of character.

And you're hypocritically are doing exactly the same thing, and even worse with the baseless accusations you just threw in those words I've quoted above. And 'live and let live' is a two-way street: the Left constantly tries to force its opinions on everyone else, and attacks anyone who disagrees or refuses to march in jackbooted lockstep with their views. And last night NovaP was viciously attacking me by saying my views were 'uninformed', which is not true, but showed her fear driving her beliefs and her refusal to live and let live (yes, I'm throwing your own words back at you).

I partially agree that letting everyone live their own lives is a measure of character...and it is the Left, it is you, and it is especially NovaP who is not doing that, but using personal attacks and smears to attempt to suppress any viewpoint that doesn't exactly equal yours.

 

[F.Luke]

I'm a Lack-booting jockstepper.

I should really get some boots 'cause my feet get tangled in the jockstraps.

 

[JuanA]

I'm a Lack-booting jockstepper.

I should really get some boots 'cause my feet get tangled in the jockstraps.

Lockstep messes up my X-step, but I'm not sure if it's because of the Jack Boots.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

And you're hypocritically are doing exactly the same thing, and even worse with the baseless accusations you just threw in those words I've quoted above. And 'live and let live' is a two-way street: the Left constantly tries to force its opinions on everyone else, and attacks anyone who disagrees or refuses to march in jackbooted lockstep with their views. And last night NovaP was viciously attacking me by saying my views were 'uninformed', which is not true, but showed her fear driving her beliefs and her refusal to live and let live (yes, I'm throwing your own words back at you).

I partially agree that letting everyone live their own lives is a measure of character...and it is the Left, it is you, and it is especially NovaP who is not doing that, but using personal attacks and smears to attempt to suppress any viewpoint that doesn't exactly equal yours.

You don't get to be the bully and the victim, Jack. Pick one.

 

[dorseymatt]

NovaP was viciously attacking me

It occurs to me now that you actually believe this to be true. I thought you were exaggerating at first when you expressed that, but you've said this multiple times now. SD, I don't want to psychoanalyze you here, and I don't know why you are so sensitive about this subject, but it is kind of weird. I mean, I get upset, too, when my 6th-grade understanding of biology gets blown out of the water. Or when I find out I've been using a word incorrectly for most of my life. Stuff like that. It's annoying. But yeah, your posts in this thread have made me kind of sad.