PDGA Updates Gender Policy

[ru4por]

I do find it amusing that the only people who are fulminantly against this are males. How does this affect you? Why, in your heart of hearts, is this really bothering you this much?

Fear. Or maybe some messed up religious misguiding. I don't care about this kind of stuff. Does not effect me and is not about me. Kind of like middle age guys getting all bunched up about abortion.....never understood the fear.

 

[Nova P]

I do find it amusing that the only people who are fulminantly against this are males. How does this affect you? Why, in your heart of hearts, is this really bothering you this much?

It could be selection bias, too. This forum is kind of a sausage party.

 

[Steve West]

I do find it amusing that the only people who are fulminantly against this are males. How does this affect you? Why, in your heart of hearts, is this really bothering you this much?

Well, you know, we males always have the instinct to defend the helpless females from other males.

 

[SD86]

For all this discussion, it's very simple to me: no matter what one does to mutilate one's bodies, if one is born with XX chromosomes, one is a female; if one is XY chromosomes, one is a male.

And that should be the basis for competition allowances and assignments.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

What it sounds like from most people,is that it is ok to be something that you aren't.
If that is the case, can I identify as a 35 yr old, so I can attempt to fix the broken country that most of us live in? My views are expressed in the following quote:

For all this discussion, it's very simple to me: no matter what one does to mutilate one's bodies, if one is born with XX chromosomes, one is a female; if one is XY chromosomes, one is a male.

From what I can gather any isssue would be solved by simply playing MPO, MA1, MA40, etc., but the only way I can figure a guy wanting to lose his parts in order to win, is if he'd be at the top of the female field, as he is getting destroyed in the male divisions. As a result of this idea, I can see why guys would be upset, as they would be losing donators, not to mention the whole protecting women thing.

 

[davetherocketguy]

For all this discussion, it's very simple to me: no matter what one does to mutilate one's bodies, if one is born with XX chromosomes, one is a female; if one is XY chromosomes, one is a male.

And that should be the basis for competition allowances and assignments.

This. And why does it have to be any more complicated than that? Leave the politics out and just go with the scientific data. Done.

 

[SD86]

This. And why does it have to be any more complicated than that? Leave the politics out and just go with the scientific data. Done.

Yep. I'm not mentioning a word of politics here. I'm not saying one word of religion. It's sheer human physiology.

 

[Nova P]

For all this discussion, it's very simple to me: no matter what one does to mutilate one's bodies, if one is born with XX chromosomes, one is a female; if one is XY chromosomes, one is a male.

And that should be the basis for competition allowances and assignments.

I learned that in middle-school biology. In 1982. That was 37 years ago.

I have, and scientists and doctors have learned since I was in middle school in 1982, that it's vastly more complicated than what you said. There's no gentle way to say this: you're as uninformed on this topic as you possibly can be. The single fact which you put forward as an axiomatic end-all to the discussion is decades out of date and useless.

Also, referring to the various surgeries which transgender people endure as "mutilation" is demeaning and insulting to both them and the talented surgeons who do this. Don't be deliberately cruel to people.

 

[SD86]

I learned that in middle-school biology. In 1982. That was 37 years ago.

I have, and scientists and doctors have learned since I was in middle school in 1982, that it's vastly more complicated than what you said. There's no gentle way to say this: you're as uninformed on this topic as you possibly can be. The single fact which you put forward as an axiomatic end-all to the discussion is decades out of date and useless.

Also, referring to the various surgeries which transgender people endure as "mutilation" is demeaning and insulting to both them and the talented surgeons who do this. Don't be deliberately cruel to people.

I'm not being cruel to anyone, and it really is that simple. If you're XX chromosomes, you're a female; if you're XY chromosomes, you're a male. And all the surgery in the world does not change that fundamental fact.

It's not complicated, and I'm as well-informed on the topic as you or anyone else. Your attempt to refute me with personal insults and false accusations, and attempts to use political correctness to induce guilt and/or attempt to silence what you don't want to hear, is what is demeaning and insulting here.

 

[Nova P]

I'm not being cruel to anyone, and it really is that simple.

You may say it is so, but the fact is that transgender people are commonly deliberately demeaned -- a cruel act -- by referring to their surgeries and mutilation, their bodies as mutilated, and their post-surgical genitals as mutilated.

Let's assume for the sake of charity that you did not know this. That's fine. Not everyone pays attention to these things. However, now that you know, please stop. Now that I have made you aware of this, if you continue then you are responsible for knowingly using language that demeans transgender people.

If you're XX chromosomes, you're a female; if you're XY chromosomes, you're a male. And all the surgery in the world does not change that fundamental fact.

No.

https://www.endocrine.org/topics/transgender-medicine
https://newatlas.com/transgender-genetic-study-hudson-institute/56631/
https://www.the-scientist.com/featu...ifferent-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/22/health/transgender-trump-biology.html

It's not complicated, and I'm as well-informed on the topic as you or anyone else.

No and no.

Your attempt to refute me with personal insults and false accusations,

I trip over myself to give as much charity and benefit of the doubt as I can in these discussions. Don't throw that back my face and expect me to have anything more to say to you.

and attempts to use political correctness to induce guilt and/or attempt to silence what you don't want to hear, is what is demeaning and insulting here.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS? Oh come on. The late 1980's called. They want their boogey-man back when you're done with it.

Absent a drastic shift in your tone and a dramatic and sudden willingness to learn anything or approach this conversation in an intellectually honest way, I am done with you.

 

[SD86]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/22/health/transgender-trump-biology.html

Quoting the New York Times? LOL!

I trip over myself to give as much charity and benefit of the doubt as I can in these discussions.

Er, no, you're not.

Don't throw that back my face and expect me to have anything more to say to you..

Absent a drastic shift in your tone and a dramatic and sudden willingness to learn anything or approach this conversation in an intellectually honest way, I am done with you.

Is this a threat to be ignored, or a promise I can expect you to keep?

 

[Nova P]

Is this a threat to be ignored, or a promise I can expect you to keep?

It's neither. I'm dismissing you from my attention for now. The way that you come to this conversation is not a productive one and I don't care what you have to say anymore, aside from attempting to limit the damage that your uninformed opinion may cause to bystanders.

 

[blake833]

As a late-comer who just read through the whole thread, there is one thing clear- Nova P is a freakin' hero. I've always had some respect for her for participating in and enduring the male-dominated world of DGCR, but damn I am so impressed and even inspired by her indefatigable courage in speaking up for the oppressed.

Also, here's some non-opinion facts which I've learned from science and having a degree in some science stuff that included some neuroscience and developmental:

Not everyone is born "XX" or "XY." Some people are born XXY, some are born XYY. Both usually look male (XXY looking a little more culturally stereo-typically female, or androgynous), and it's not super correlated with transgender, but the idea that people are either born XX or XY is not correct.

What is also not correct is the idea that everyone is either born with male or female genitalia. Ambiguous/Co-existing male and female genitalia at birth is so common, if you went to a high school with more than a couple thousand students, you probably had a couple as fellow students.

Simile, it has been mentioned how gender is determined by hormones present during gestation, but to further illumine that process, imagine this: The default position for every gene is female, the gender which reproduces. At certain stages of development the presence of a Y chromosome (which is really a slightly broken X chromosome) activates a "switch" that determines whether male characteristic develop, and the female remains dormant. Most development happens in (and this is really painting with a broad brush here) a cascade scenario, where activating the male switch in a certain trait can turn on the male switch for the next one, which continues the process until you have a fully male organism. At any point, this process can break and the rest of development continues as female, or it could skip and you get mixed development. But the default setting for genes for practically EVERY LIVING THING in the animal Kingdom (especially the further you get down the taxonomy tree) is female.

I hope that clears up now absolutely unclear and unabsolute the issue can be.

For my opinion and my stance- I always err on the side of compassion and validation. Even if it means I can sometimes be taken advantage of. I would always rather someone feel loved and seen than protect my own ego, and don't want anyone to experience real pain that I as someone who presents as just a regular white guy will never know. I don't think this is a huge issue in disc golf, but one of my old college friends who I used to play with transitioned, and if she competed now (which I don't think she's picked up a disc since we played together) I would only encourage her to pick the division she felt comfortable in, knowing she's still a fair competitor with integrity who just wants to participate.

TL;DR: Nova P is a hero, development is wonky, and love goes a long way.

 

[blake833]

i missed the edit window, but that should say "whether *a* male characteristic develop*s*" in the middle, and "I hope that clears up *h*ow absolutely" instead of "now absolutely". I think y'all could've gotten that but it bothers me so much that missed the window

 

[Three Putt]

I was reading a story today that said Casimir Pulaski was probably intersex; his skeleton presents as female. He would have never known that; he was raised male, had facial hair, etc. 1n the 1700's they wouldn't have known what was going on. Pulaski was a Revolutionary War hero, we used to get Pulaski Day off work when I lived in Chicago.

They estimate 1.7% of people are born intersex, which is more people than are born with red hair. That leans toward this being a little more complicated than the XY sex-determination system can account for. Or at least something to think about. I mean I don't have any answers and my opinion on this matter is just my opinion.

But we do this stuff. There was a thing going 'round a few years ago saying men were going to dress like women so that they could get into women's bathrooms. And? What would that get them? A view of women washing their hands? I mean stalls are still things. They would have to do something illegal for there to be anything worth worrying about, and if they were going to do something illegal like that what advantage would being in the woman's room in drag get them? I mean it's a great way to get people all worked up..."Dudes are going to be in the bathroom with your daughters!" The reality is that it's a non-issue. Kinda like the idea that a dude would pretend to be a woman to win disc golf events.

 

[Nova P]

As a late-comer who just read through the whole thread, there is one thing clear- Nova P is a freakin' hero. I've always had some respect for her for participating in and enduring the male-dominated world of DGCR, but damn I am so impressed and even inspired by her indefatigable courage in speaking up for the oppressed.

Also, here's some non-opinion facts (. . .)

Thank you. Now I don't have to go to bed mad and sad. :hfive:

 

[SD86]

Not everyone is born "XX" or "XY." Some people are born XXY, some are born XYY. Both usually look male (XXY looking a little more culturally stereo-typically female, or androgynous), and it's not super correlated with transgender, but the idea that people are either born XX or XY is not correct.

True, but that does not refute what I am saying: that a person who is "XX" (not XXY, just XX) is a genetically a female, and a person who is "XY" is genetically a male.

And so-called gender-changing surgery (i.e. mutilation of one's body) does not change those genetics. We don't have that technology yet. When we do, we'll have that discussion then...

 

[SD86]

True, but that does not refute what I am saying: that a person who is "XX" (not XXY, just XX) is a genetically a female, and a person who is "XY" is genetically a male.

And so-called gender-changing surgery (i.e. mutilation of one's body) does not change those genetics. We don't have that technology yet. When we do, we'll have that discussion then...

And to the above point, it is my assertion that people with XY chromosomes should not (and should not be allowed to) compete in physically competitive events or sections of events set aside for persons with XX chromosomes.

Very, very simple.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

I'm not being cruel to anyone, and it really is that simple. If you're XX chromosomes, you're a female; if you're XY chromosomes, you're a male. And all the surgery in the world does not change that fundamental fact.

It's not complicated, and I'm as well-informed on the topic as you or anyone else. Your attempt to refute me with personal insults and false accusations, and attempts to use political correctness to induce guilt and/or attempt to silence what you don't want to hear, is what is demeaning and insulting here.

Political correctness is an empty signifier created by conservatives as a workaround to actually talking about issues. They no longer had to have stances; they simply had to claim that other people weren't being genuine; they were simply being politically correct.

That people self-police themselves against being politically correct is one of the great conservative successes. And a great travesty for society. That people charge others with being politically correct leads once again to the original conclusion: it's easier to make accusations about another's thinking and rhetoric than it is to actually question normative thought.

 

[SD86]

Political correctness is an empty signifier created by conservatives as a workaround to actually talking about issues. They no longer had to have stances; they simply had to claim that other people weren't being genuine; they were simply being politically correct.

That people self-police themselves against being politically correct is one of the great conservative successes. And a great travesty for society. That people charge others with being politically correct leads once again to the original conclusion: it's easier to make accusations about another's thinking and rhetoric than it is to actually question normative thought.

Okay, this will cross into politics, but I no longer care. I'm tired of being attacked and lied about.

Dr. Carl Sagan one said "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out." The Left is constantly saying "keep and open mind", but what they really mean is "change your mind to agree with what we say, or else."

The Left uses political correctness as a weapon, to stifle debate and silence those who are not in jackbooted lockstep with their political views. Political correctness is not a 1980s thing, it is a very real threat to the expression of the truth and facts TODAY.

When the Left hears something they don't like, they attack it as 'uninformed'. NovaP called my statement of a fact 'uniformed' because it was not in lockstep with her views. It was a personal attack and an attempt to 'refute' my facts because she cannot refute the fact that people with XX chromosomes are female and people with XY chromosomes are males. It is NovaP that made the accusation about another's thinking when faced with a fact that disagrees with her politically correct views.

It is NOT a travesty to stand up against political correctness in the name of the Truth. Political correctness, especially as weaponized and used by the Left, is an attempt to suppress the Truth, and it is going to lead to something much, much worse than the debate on this thread if people of integrity do not stand up against it and call it out for what it is.