PDGA Major: 2022 PDGA Champions Cup Apr 14-17

[ru4por]

Not suspicious at all to text Paiges caddie to get Tattars daughter removed 3 and a half rounds into a tournament.

She was okay with it earlier, but then all of a sudden...

I don't know Elaine King. I don't know the situation that resulted in her decisions. I don't know the facts surrounding the phone call. See, it is OK to just admit you don't have a clue.

Elaine King has been nothing but a terrific ambassador of our game. I would think your speculation would run more toward, her looking to actions that protected the integrity of disc golf and players.

But.......she is a women and all that, right? And you are just a sexist, trying to degrade women to make yourself feel better.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See how that conjecture, supposition and innuendo stuff works?

 

[Ess-dog]

I also noticed several folks walking with the players - or caddying - and wearing things that seemed out of place. Some DGCR thread from a few months back had someone asking how they should prepare to be a spectator at a tourney and one of the responses said something about wearing earth tones and toned down clothes - something I had never considered before

Fast forward to this event where Babcock's final round caddy was wearing some "HEY GUYS MATT HERE" black tee shirt with a huge goofy selfie on the back.

Someone else pointed out Ms. Dickerson wearing a bright blue tanktop, though she wasnt caddying for chris at any point.

Then there was Corey Ellis' lady friend who was dressed in bright clothes and lots of skin showing every time i saw her.

It made me think- if there are no rules being enforced as to what your friend/caddy can wear couldn't you as a player potentially use that to your advantage? If I had an attractive person in bright clothes walking with me, perhaps that achieves the same thing DGCR poster from months ago was trying to prevent - unwanted distractions for my opponents.

Ultimately, seems like there should be a dress code for those allowed to be in the playing group and it should probably be enforced

I am in support of a rule change to No caddies. No entourage. No support mom/wife/husband/sig. other/child, No grey areas when it comes to people walking with the card that are not score keeping or working as an official.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

It made me think- if there are no rules being enforced as to what your friend/caddy can wear couldn't you as a player potentially use that to your advantage? If I had an attractive person in bright clothes walking with me, perhaps that achieves the same thing DGCR poster from months ago was trying to prevent - unwanted distractions for my opponents.

Ultimately, seems like there should be a dress code for those allowed to be in the playing group and it should probably be enforced

Why can't they be hideously ugly and dress attrociously? Certainly a wider pool of candidates to draw from.

I recall the post you refer to, and I respect (and to a certain degree, even applaud) that person's commitment to not wanting to affect the outcome in any way. But this is still America, and spectators can wear what they want. Caddies and staff should probably be held to the same standard as players, as they're basically part of the event.

I like the fact that Niko shows a bit of personality in his clothing choices.

I saw Mrs. Dickerson's bright blue top. If that's gonna throw someone off their game, then that's a player who's already lost the mental battle.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

The PDGA or DGPT could have provided childcare for a working mother . Only the second best woman player in the world. There should be a clear investment in making her tournament experience absolutely great.

(Now going to get lawyered about liability.)

 

[BionicRib]

So if I'm playing my local b/c tier I can't have one of my kids be my caddy until they are 13? What happened to the player being responsible for the caddy's actions? I haven't read the actual rule this year, but if this is true and it applies to all tournaments it's an absolute joke.

 

[ru4por]

So if I'm playing my local b/c tier I can't have one of my kids be my caddy until they are 13? What happened to the player being responsible for the caddy's actions? I haven't read the actual rule this year, but if this is true and it applies to all tournaments it's an absolute joke.

As your cardmate, I don't really want to have the distraction. I would not want you bringing your dog. Not a fan of you playing loud country music. I would genuinely be annoyed if you did it for a league round. I simply did not pay 40+ bucks to spend an afternoon with your children. I spent the money to challenge myself and the course in a competitive environment. Regardless of their behavior, it could be a distraction to others and perhaps an advantage to you. In the interest of fair play, the rules try to specifically eliminate such distractions.

 

[BionicRib]

As your cardmate, I don't really want to have the distraction. I would not want you bringing your dog. Not a fan of you playing loud country music. I would genuinely be annoyed if you did it for a league round. I simply did not pay 40+ bucks to spend an afternoon with your children. I spent the money to challenge myself and the course in a competitive environment. Regardless of their behavior, it could be a distraction to others and perhaps an advantage to you. In the interest of fair play, the rules try to specifically eliminate such distractions.

I see your point. I'm also sensing you don't have children. If I teach my son or daughter the rules of the game and how to act at a tournament as a spectator and/or caddy then they won't be a distraction for you. Personally I'd rather have a 9 year old caddy who understands the game and how to act properly rather than a 9 year old spectator who's a friend of a local casual player who's never played a tournament as a spectator.
If I play a tourney with you and my wife and kids are there I can assure you that whether they were caddying for me or just spectating there would be no difference in how they act. The rule is silly. If someone brings their under 13 kid to caddy and someone calls them out on it.....poof....take the bag off the kid and guess what he's not a caddy anymore....he's still there, but not a caddy. The rule is silly. I'll be sure to bring a quiet sign in my bag to give to my kid if he caddy's for me and somebody calls me out on it......poof not a caddy....

....just silly....

 

[DanJon]

Thanks! I still don't see where the goal/mission/responsibility of each committee is outlined however.

I have noticed that the Assistant TD of this tourney is on the Competition Committee. Is it unreasonable to expect him to recognize that the woman leading the tournament was breaking a rule he just helped create?

The TD of this tournament is also on the Pro Touring Players Committee. I would've thought that commitment would involve more empathy toward difficulties facing touring players.

Perhaps if KT jams that winning putt home, this all never comes to light. But she didn't, and now it just seems unfortunate all the way around. I guess I am just trying to understand what we have all learned from this and how we(the PDGA) can get better from this.

Great point on the TD and Assistant.

One of the top players in the world, with cameras and official folks everywhere before she's tees off and no one thought to mention anything to her?

Clearly her daughter isn't 13.

How does something like that go unnoticed during a major by a top international player, who is leading the tournament?

We really are ready for the big time.

 

[DanJon]

I am in support of a rule change to No caddies. No entourage. No support mom/wife/husband/sig. other/child, No grey areas when it comes to people walking with the card that are not score keeping or working as an official.

Imagine if the PDGA and DGPT turned a blind eye to a top player's manager yelling, "WOOOOOO!!!!!" 17 times per round.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Wasn't some degree of the "entourage" a result of COVID/pandemic both in terms of the entourage being the only people on the course at certain events and then, second, as a way to protect players from exposure by getting their people out of the general crowds? Might be reading into things here, but the "wives/husbands/partners" following players closely seems to be a pandemic development and now a crowd size matter. It wasn't that long ago that a significant other could just follow along with the masses because the masses were 37 people total.

 

[ru4por]

Imagine if the PDGA and DGPT turned a blind eye to a top player's manager yelling, "WOOOOOO!!!!!" 17 times per round.

It really is not the DGPT or PDGA responsibility to seek out and call infractions. It is the TD's job to clarify rules and infractions as they are called. Someone needs to courtesy violate a fan. She is not acting as the caddy.

 

[Ess-dog]

It really is not the DGPT or PDGA responsibility to seek out and call infractions. It is the TD's job to clarify rules and infractions as they are called. Someone needs to courtesy violate a fan. She is not acting as the caddy.

Especially when they are asking for money and telling fans when and how to be enthusiastic, where to stand, and "do not talk to a pro" even though 99% haven't been recognized in public before. Paul showing up with two car loads of hangers on was off putting. Ricky getting his questions answered for him. Yeesh! Disc golf doesn't even have a tradition of caddies. We don't need to invent that people other than the player are interesting or useful to the coverage of a round. Wait get a shot of my girlfriend nervously playing with her rings as I'm about to hit submit to a post about my peculiarly specific hang up. That'll add drama.

 

[ThrowBot]

Wait, I missed it. What happened?

The PDGA created a rule that says foreign minors have to perform unpaid work by holding signs at Major events?

This is a strange intersection of child labor law and anti-immigration sentiment. It's weird what the PDGA has turned into recently.

But hey: new Major. Sweet :|

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

So would this be a precedent? An outside observer of a live broadcast was able to have an effect on a tournament they were not involved in. Having been made aware tournament officials had no choice but act and enforce rules.

 

[txmxer]

Drama queens.

Take it on face value unless there is evidence otherwise.

EK saw a situation which could cost KT a win. She went above and beyond to prevent the worst from happening.

If she had said nothing, most likely nothing would have happened. Of course she could have been DQd after the fact.

DG is still in the middle ground. If EK doesn't bring it to light, probably goes unnoticed.

To think EK acted vindictively is ridiculous.

It is a linear series of events/actions. If KT had finished out and won, PP would not have said a word.

 

[Nale72]

Caddie rules are in the Competition Manual which is handled by the Competition Committee.

The Rules Committee handles the Official Rules of Disc Golf and associated Q&As.

Thanks for the clarification. Either way, I believe the Competition manual need an update since there seems to be some kind of conflicting wording about the 13 year old restriction/caddie part.

1.13 Youth Safety
A. Parents/guardians must be responsible for their children during PDGA-sanctioned events. Neither the PDGA staff nor the event staff are responsible for the children of tournament players, spectators, etc. during events. Parents/guardians may not leave unaccompanied children at or near the scoring area, clubhouse, or any other tournament venue. Any child younger than 13 years of age who is accompanying any player group and is not a caddie must be supervised by an adult who is not part of that player group and not a caddie.

If you (or Kristin) read only this part of the Competition manual I can understand why you (she) might have believed it was ok for her daughter to come along as a caddie. If it shouldn't be ok with someone younger than 13 to be a caddie, why on earth would you add the part of "and is not a caddie" in this paragraph?

Of course, if you continue and read 3.05 Carts, Caddies and Groups, it there states that a caddie must be at least 13 years of age.

As I see it (someone in here might be able to enlighten me?) there is no reason to have the "and is not a caddie" part in 1.13 A. The only thing I can see this part does is to confuse/create a possible missunderstanding about the 13 year old restriction.

After all Kristen receieved a caddie tag for her daughter, probably to be sure she offically had the right to stay with her during the round. Already here the age issue should have been lifted, if it should have been at all.

I'm also all for that the players should know and follow the rules, and all rules at that. But from what I understood from the interview with Paige on the Nick & Matt show, neither Kristen or anyone else on the card knew about the 13 year old caddie restriction. They had tournament/PDGA officials there with the card from before the start, that either didn't know about the rules or chose to not enforce them. Kristens daughter was no issue to the others on the card (according to Paige).

Many things were poorly handled around this, especially from Elaine King in my mind. When the issue was raised and Kings text about her being at risk of being DQ:ed was shown to Kristen, I believe it was more or less handled as well as it possibly could. But the harm was already done then.

Even if she wasn't actually at risk of being DQ:ed, I believe she actually thought that was the case (at least for a while) since she was shown a text from a high PDGA official, saying she actually was at risk of being DQ:ed. And even if the issue was solved so that her daughter could follow pretty closely most of the time, her daughter (a 9 year old that as far as I know is not fluent in English?) still was in the hands of someone who to Kristen and her daughter was a complete stranger.

And I don't only believe this was unfair to break it like this to Kristen. It was also so wrong to bring it up through Paiges caddie. Because now this also (at least for that hole) distracted Paiges game. I'm not at all surpriced both Paige and Kristin got a bogey on that hole.

As a parent I have no doubt this affected Kristens focus for the rest of the last round. And this was also more or less confirmed by Nick, who stayed at the same place as Kristen and spent a lot of time with her before and after this happened.

I just think this whole thing was very unfortunate and that it shouldn't have happened the way it did. In my mind it should have been brought up way earlier than it did (if it should have been brought up) and for sure not been brought up the way it now did.

But to be fair, of course Kristin (like all others who didn't know/brought it up) should know the every single rule and every part of the Competition manual. But we all know that there is very few players (if any) who do that 100%.

Kristen has my full respect for not blaming anyone else but herself for what happened for not knowing about this rule (or not actually a rule since it was a part of the Competition manual).

 

[Flick Maniac]

If you watch/listen to this episode of the Nick and Matt show, Paige explains this whole story. She explains how she/they were affected, who brought it up, the time line etc. :



https://youtu.be/IsJReKeGgrQ?t=1812

Watched this. Good succinct info.

If youre into stretching that talk really out with dozen tangents, even if some of them pretty interesting, you can go to Smashboxx podcast with Elaine King. They do brush upon a couple things mentioned here (like caddie dresscode) but I cant believe I just used up an hour of my life on that. I need to go outside. Pet a dog or something lol

 

[krupicka]

Thanks for the clarification. Either way, I believe the Competition manual need an update since there seems to be some kind of conflicting wording about the 13 year old restriction/caddie part.

Occasionally inconsistencies pop up where a rule change is made in one spot and then a related rule that also needs to be updated is missed. This type of review is difficult.

One of the things the RC tried to accomplish in 2022 for the ORDG was to root out inconsistencies or places where the Q&A was establishing a rule that was not actually in the rules. I will pass along the inconsistency on young caddies to the Comp Committee.

 

[Monocacy]

Occasionally inconsistencies pop up where a rule change is made in one spot and then a related rule that also needs to be updated is missed. This type of review is difficult.

One of the things the RC tried to accomplish in 2022 for the ORDG was to root out inconsistencies or places where the Q&A was establishing a rule that was not actually in the rules. I will pass along the inconsistency on young caddies to the Comp Committee.

I dealt with a similar problem auditing regulatory compliance documents. The best solution is to avoid having the same information in more than one place, because inconsistencies inevitably emerge. Of course sometimes that is not practicable.

Where the same information is presented in different places (e.g., a rule and its interpretive guidance, rule vs. competition manual, etc.), is there a way to link or footnote the two so that anyone revising one knows to check the other for consistency?

The other work-around is to consolidate the rule into one document, and then reference the source in any other document that touches on that rule ("Caddy attire must comply with Competition Manual section xxx.xx") rather than re-writing the rule in multiple documents.

Not an easy task, so good luck!

 

[Shankapotamus]

Brittany was Chris' caddie according to her interview on the Nick and Matt show. She also mentioned when she is in a media role on the course, she's not allowed near Chris.