2015 Ledgestone NT presented by Discraft

[bballr4567]

You're logic is wrong. I'm not saying the effort shouldn't be appreciated, but there is room to grow and improve. Ignoring this will only hurt you in the end.

Nate has already said that he will listen to opinions about the courses and the tournament. What he wont listen to are immature rants.


So, Im watching the final 9 of the womens FPO and the course doesn't look at that crazy hard as in unfair to the women. Some very, very, very bad throws like Weese on the bridge hole and Cat on 5 where she throws OB going for the basket 3 times. On the same hole Val took par because she played it conservatively.

How about the ridiculous throw by Paige on the water tower hole to make it within 10 feet of the basket?

 

[bballr4567]

as someone who has designed a course with extensive OB, one thing Ive learned is that a players opinion of the course is typically very personal.....when they cannot run a basket without fear of ob they take it personally, when they throw ob and then gamble to make up strokes and compound the problem they take it personally.

Smart errorless play is worth as much as high risk high reward play and lots of players simply do not like that

I think there is a place for this in the game

I dont know much about the Ledgestone designs but I do know that players typically bitch when a course beats them

This X100.

The course beat quite a few players over this past weekend. Players don't like getting beat by people much less the course.

 

[blackcatsmith]

I can't help but feel that disc golf has to some degree- changed now, and that this tournament had something to do with it, but I can't put my finger on it. (cue Ween)

 

[Pbmercil]

Nate has already said that he will listen to opinions about the courses and the tournament. What he wont listen to are immature rants.


So, Im watching the final 9 of the womens FPO and the course doesn't look at that crazy hard as in unfair to the women. Some very, very, very bad throws like Weese on the bridge hole and Cat on 5 where she throws OB going for the basket 3 times. On the same hole Val took par because she played it conservatively.

How about the ridiculous throw by Paige on the water tower hole to make it within 10 feet of the basket?

Yeah the holes that FPO played seemed good to me. Though that par 5 around the football field and mando right of the goal posts is pretty ugly looking. Did they play that whole course before the finals? I really wanted to see them take a crack at 17 (morbid curiosity mostly)

 

[krupicka]

FPO only played a subset of the Lake Eureka Temp course for the final 9. They did not play the course otherwise.

 

[bballr4567]

Yeah the holes that FPO played seemed good to me. Though that par 5 around the football field and mando right of the goal posts is pretty ugly looking. Did they play that whole course before the finals? I really wanted to see them take a crack at 17 (morbid curiosity mostly)

It does look ugly having the goal posts there but what can you do. It makes for an interesting mando and then having the fairway lined with OB. It takes a pretty solid RHBH to make the next landing zone or a good RHFH.

 

[DavidSauls]

I think the general undertones of Stokely's video were positive. I appreciate his positive attitude and the professional approach he intends to use to provide feedback for the tournament staff.

What I think can be easily misconstrued is his idea of being selfish. How I took it was that he is choosing to respond this way because selfishly he wants more tournaments like this. Whining and complaining publicly will only burn out the tournament director. So he is choosing to selfishly withhold his constructive criticism for his intended letter so he doesn't publicly flame the tournament director.

I think he could have chosen different words but I think the general idea of his video was that its awesome to publicly acknowledge and appreciate the great things that happened at this tournament and your constructive criticism should be taken up directly, privately, and professionally with the tournament staff. Not aired out on social media.

I think "selfish" is just his typical slightly-ironic way with words. It's catchier than saying, "in our own long-term interest as pros."

 

[lyleoross]

I mean the TD directly said that he designed the course to test their patience. Seems kinda diabolical...

If you say diabolical, don't you have to add in mwa ha ha ha to the end?

Personally, given how the top pros eat up many courses, a course that makes the players think, and apply a greater skill set seems a good idea.

 

[Pbmercil]

Wow. I'm just rewatching the final 9 again, and Paul McBeth absolutely shot himself in the foot. He dropped at MINIMUM 5 strokes on being too aggressive. He had bad breaks early and started pressing and it ruined him.

 

[lyleoross]

Agree that Simon really played smart and executed well on the Final 9. To be fair, Paul missed, yes missed, a couple of key shots that turned things around. He then had to become aggressive. Point being that Paul clanked a couple of long putts, threw short OB on a not overly difficult approach and had a bad drive (compared to Simon's).

Don't you think at some level, Paul's mistakes were due to the pressure Simon put on? I remember at the European open, when Paul placed his shot farther back so he'd get first run at the island hole. He nailed it and you could see Ricky W. wolf. It seemed the same here, Simon got the box and made his shots. You could see Paul taking riskier and riskier shots to try and keep up, and everyone seemed to be a fail.

 

[Pbmercil]

Don't you think at some level, Paul's mistakes were due to the pressure Simon put on? I remember at the European open, when Paul placed his shot farther back so he'd get first run at the island hole. He nailed it and you could see Ricky W. wolf. It seemed the same here, Simon got the box and made his shots. You could see Paul taking riskier and riskier shots to try and keep up, and everyone seemed to be a fail.

I guess it's definitely possible. I guess I just don't see McBeth as being the type of guy to crack like that, normally his mental game is so strong.

I'm not 100% McBeth put his shot farther back on purpose. He went first intentionally, but giving yourself a longer look at a really hard shot in the hopes that you can nail it and eff with the other guy doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

This just reaffirms my belief in that the best strategy in a finals is to play the round you've practiced and laid out for yourself no matter what. Taking risks to make up strokes doesn't ever seem to work out for these guys.

 

[lyleoross]

Actually yes, yes it does. See, nate doesn't owe the disc golf community a freaking thing. NOTHING. He can run his event any way he freaking feels like. He could build a temp course next year with nothing but 100 foot holes and I wouldn't say a damn thing. Nobody is paying him. He does this purely out of love and passion for disc golf. So he can do whatever he wants. It's HIS event. If you don't like it, don't play, don't watch, don't go, whatever. See, the disc golf community NEEDS people like him to exist. What he's doing for the PDGA is charity. He doesn't have to. He could decide tomorrow that it isn't worth the hassle and bag the legdestone. It's happened to plenty of awesome TD'S before.

I don't get what makes people think they have the right to pile on. If you don't like it don't play in it, don't watch it, don't buy a fundraiser disc or whatever. But the idea that nate owes players (and a bunch of non players too) an explanation is pure garbage. Disc golfers critizing nate is like a homeless person griping about the food at the soup kitchen

I'm not as eloquent as Pb, but yeah, what he said! Any TD who puts in this much effort has my support, 110%. Having done volunteer work, of this nature, and in other sports, it's a ton of work, and listening to whining about what are -relatively- small things compared to the over all success, stinks. Look at Scott Stokely's vid, he makes the point nicely, talk about the positives in public, send private suggestions. You'll catch a lot more flies that way.

 

[lyleoross]

I guess it's definitely possible. I guess I just don't see McBeth as being the type of guy to crack like that, normally his mental game is so strong.

I'm not 100% McBeth put his shot farther back on purpose. He went first intentionally, but giving yourself a longer look at a really hard shot in the hopes that you can nail it and eff with the other guy doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

This just reaffirms my belief in that the best strategy in a finals is to play the round you've practiced and laid out for yourself no matter what. Taking risks to make up strokes doesn't ever seem to work out for these guys.

I could be wrong, but I thought that question came up in an interview with him, and he let the suggestion he had done that stand. Of course gamesmanship is gamesmanship, even in interviews. Paul doesn't crack often, but it does happen. He had one earlier this year, I don't even remember the event, but he folded in the last round. You could see him taking bigger risks and thinking less. It's hard to believe the guy is human some days.

One way or the other, your strategy works for me too. You play your game, getting off it is always a disaster.

 

[lyleoross]

On JohnE,

Slamming your disc into the bucket when you're frustrated doesn't count as losing it, or even acting unprofessionally in this sport. JEM had a couple of really bad holes where he took risks and got burned. He lost his focus on at least one hole that I remember. Being terse and short under such conditions is a mark of maturity if you compare it to having a baby fit because your play isn't what you want. I referee soccer and what I see players do when they are frustrated amazes me, and all if it makes JEM look pretty darned responsible IMO.

 

[lyleoross]

The next stage to grow the sport is again follow the Boston and New York Runners Clubs model and create independent non profit corporations where you can have salaried organizer staffs per given tournament, especially the larger ones.

You need to compensate the efforts of TDs and main organizers for such a successful (in terms of man power and money generated) endeavor. The players will always be there, but the current model is not sustainable for the superstar level TDs/organizers. The top TDs will just burn out.

The PDGA has salaried staff, and wouldn't survive without it. In fact it's grown by leaps and bounds. It doesn't have to be huge money/salaries but the system should be implemented. It's an idea who's time has come.

Hard to do. Those running clubs drive profits based on having the participation of several thousand runners, all of whom pay more than the typical DGT entry. There's just a whole lot more cash coming into the pot.

I've been playing for 20 years, I'm actually quite amazed at what the PDGA has done over that time given the cash model. Kudos!

 

[Matt B.]

yeah watch the end for you people who cant seem to make it through content which is 1+min and doesn't interest you right away.

Watched it, good message. Hope you don't kill someone filming while driving, Stokeley. Glad you could save 2 minutes.

 

[notroman]

Probably not seen in any videos, but while the MPO card was waiting to tee off on the last hole of the final 9 everyone was in good spirits. Paul knew he wasn't winning so he no longer felt any pressure. I think him and Simon were talking about the huge aggressive anny bomb Simon threw over the lake in round 4 that got him so far up the fairway. Paul was saying he was going to go for the same shot and I'm not sure what exactly was said but Simon laughed about it - wonder if it was a friendly competition of who would get up the fairway farther. Even JohnE went for that shot which Doss commented on later was very fun for the whole group. These guys have the fire in them to win and it shows during competition, but once the competition is over it's obvious they just love this sport and love watching discs fly. The videos of the final 9 will never convey the atmosphere around the tee during the wait. I feel that was the best part of the final 9. Just seeing how much fun these guys had bombing their drives down the fairway without worry.

 

[mike.sepulveda.73]

^^this. I watched the dg guy video of the final 9. The anny bombs over the lake were fun to watch. And they showed a bit of the pre tee chat and how the guys were joking about the massive, crazy line that Simon took. The payout doesn't change if you came in 2nd by 1 stroke or 10 strokes so if the standings are locked down (which they basically were), just have some fun with it, which they did.

 

[bballr4567]

I think Doss' roller was the cooler shot by far. That thing stood up and rolled UP hill. I wasn't expecting that at all.

 

[tampora]

Actually yes, yes it does.

I think you are confusing giving criticism with making demands. There's nothing wrong with stating how you feel about the tournament via criticism.

Of course, there is something wrong with demanding change, but I'm not seeing that.