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2018 Las Vegas Challenge PDGA NT
- Thread starter brutalbrutus
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2012
- Messages
- 2,243
Colorado killing it!
LukeButch
Birdie Member
you are imagining that. He said on FB that he is not there. Innova/Discmania events prefer exclusive post-produced coverage. This event seems worse than the DGWT events as those had video clips you could watch on the discgolf metrix(see paul getting the 2 on 9 instead of seeing just the number 2), as well as Avery Jenkins and others doing Facebook Live and other short videos. At least then while there wasn't live there was alot of content coming out.
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
r2p2 is up.
I'm not going to quote everyone who quoted me...but all of you are smart enough to realize that my argument is that we were doing the PDGA's job for them by creating a more marketable product, thus increasing exposure for the sport. The media is the catalyst to the rapid growth of this game, the correlation is pretty clear at this point.
If you think I'm obtuse enough to put forth a simplistic argument like "The PDGA's job is to get me paid" or "The PDGA should be helping my view counts" then just don't bother responding, because that shows you don't understand the issue at hand.
The core of the issue is the insult to the people that are literally evolving the culture of the sport before our eyes by the verysame organization which will heavily benefit from our work, despite the manufacturers picking up most of the tab. Not only did they legislate a kneejerk reaction with no communication with media members and/or TD's, but also the extra insult is how toothless and unenforceable the actual written regulation is.
The icing on the cake? The PDGA employees who work the closest with the media had no idea this was coming up. Whoever made this rule did it without even fully consulting within the organization.
That is the problem.
If you think I'm obtuse enough to put forth a simplistic argument like "The PDGA's job is to get me paid" or "The PDGA should be helping my view counts" then just don't bother responding, because that shows you don't understand the issue at hand.
The core of the issue is the insult to the people that are literally evolving the culture of the sport before our eyes by the verysame organization which will heavily benefit from our work, despite the manufacturers picking up most of the tab. Not only did they legislate a kneejerk reaction with no communication with media members and/or TD's, but also the extra insult is how toothless and unenforceable the actual written regulation is.
The icing on the cake? The PDGA employees who work the closest with the media had no idea this was coming up. Whoever made this rule did it without even fully consulting within the organization.
That is the problem.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2008
- Messages
- 4,783
Jamie, thanks for the blunt assessment of the situation vis a vis the supercard ban.
The PDGA has always catered to the Pros. After all, it was started by Pros to look after Pro interests.
It is, after all, the PDGA.
One wonders what could have happened if the PDGA had been a bit more visionary and tried to grow the grassroots of the sport, much like soccer, lacrosse, etc.
In any case, the fact that some relatively small set of Pros were able to affect this kind of rule change only reinforces the history and problematic future of the PDGA...
The PDGA has always catered to the Pros. After all, it was started by Pros to look after Pro interests.
It is, after all, the PDGA.
One wonders what could have happened if the PDGA had been a bit more visionary and tried to grow the grassroots of the sport, much like soccer, lacrosse, etc.
In any case, the fact that some relatively small set of Pros were able to affect this kind of rule change only reinforces the history and problematic future of the PDGA...
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Come on Jamie- you are smarter than that. The tens of thousands of people watching dg video are already into the game and you know it. If you have some stats to prove otherwise I would love to see them.
This game has been growing at relatively the same pace for the 25 years I have been involved in it. Baskets in the ground is what has driven pretty much all of that growth. The increase in views/demand for media is a by product of that- not a cause of it.
Please do not take this as disparagement of what you and the others do- I know you all work hard at it for relatively little tangible reward and produce product well beyond what your budgetary limits would dictate. I am a farmer so lord knows I know about that.
gsw_03
Par Member
100% agree. Round 2 footage feels like watching a C tier. Too bad there were top level pros on the same course lighting it up for only the spectators to see. Well done innova and jomez.
Streets
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2012
- Messages
- 10,546
Maybe they should have played better and gotten on the lead card. I don't think you actually watched the video because Jesse and Nikko were in fact lighting up the course. But I guess you like having Simon, Eagle and Ricky shoved down your throat regardless of what card or how bad they are playing. Give me a break.
This might not be the best place for this question, but what is the PDGA's job? Is it to regulate and govern competition or to increase exposure for the sport? Those are not the same goal, and they can come into conflict with each other. Example: The new iteration of the no super group rule. It's a compelling discussion. On an amateur level, I can definitely say that I prefer to be playing with players that are playing well. I don't love being on the same card as the guy who throws a tantrum at every missed putt or drive that hits a tree. At the same time, if I get put on that guy's card, it's up to me to not let it be a distraction and to play well enough to be on a different card for the next round. I'm sure pros also have preferences for who is on their card, and I can see why some pros would be irked about the same 8 or so players being repeatedly selected for feature cards.
For the record, I as a viewer dislike the rule, I see no data backing up the idea that playing on a supercard provides an advantage, and arguments about seeing which lines other players are throwing are stupid.
The more believable argument for me sounds more like this: "Card mates' attitudes can affect a player's mental game. It's luck of the draw for R1 and it is up to the player to overcome that and play his/her own game, but making feature cards takes some of the randomness out of it and concentrates many of the good vibes onto one card." I don't agree with that argument, but I buy it a whole lot more than the so-called advantage of seeing other players' lines.
Back on the tournament, it's been fun to see Nikko play well. He's a polarizing figure to say the least, but I think pro disc golf is more fun when Nikko is playing lead cards. Also interesting to see how things have almost normalized after 3 rounds. We were all baffled by the R1 results due to the wind, but even with some wonky conditions it looks like it'll mostly be the expected top pros near the top of the leaderboard assuming that Paul and Ricky have good rounds today.
For the record, I as a viewer dislike the rule, I see no data backing up the idea that playing on a supercard provides an advantage, and arguments about seeing which lines other players are throwing are stupid.
The more believable argument for me sounds more like this: "Card mates' attitudes can affect a player's mental game. It's luck of the draw for R1 and it is up to the player to overcome that and play his/her own game, but making feature cards takes some of the randomness out of it and concentrates many of the good vibes onto one card." I don't agree with that argument, but I buy it a whole lot more than the so-called advantage of seeing other players' lines.
Back on the tournament, it's been fun to see Nikko play well. He's a polarizing figure to say the least, but I think pro disc golf is more fun when Nikko is playing lead cards. Also interesting to see how things have almost normalized after 3 rounds. We were all baffled by the R1 results due to the wind, but even with some wonky conditions it looks like it'll mostly be the expected top pros near the top of the leaderboard assuming that Paul and Ricky have good rounds today.
I think you mean Joel, not Jesse (though he was playing pretty well, too.) I don't think you actually watched the video
I agree with your sentiment that the coverage card should be the lead card. Players should be rewarded for playing exceptionally well, including lower profile players like Jeff Renner, Joel Freeman, and Jesse Adams. It'd be ridiculous if they weren't covered on the lead card and cameras were instead directed to players of a higher profile.
Varying wind conditions that led to players essentially playing a different course based on what time of day they teed off makes this a little more complicated. We probably have a different R2 lead card if everyone plays in the same conditions. All the same I'm going to watch the lead card coverage no matter who is on it, and I'm happy to see some lower profile players get some spotlight. It's probably really cool for them to be on their first recorded NT lead card and equally cool for regional players who play with them on a regular basis.
billyjacko
Eagle Member
Lol. I agree though, I love watching Nikko play because of his unique style and lines. I could do without the awkwardness of him in a bad mood on the course. He just ends up looking childish and unprofessional. Anyways, it's better when we have more competition at the top. It's great to see guys like James Conrad and Kevin Jones seemingly come out of nowhere. I hope this is the year Lizotte and Eagle take the next step too.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
I think you guys are talking about two different kinds of growth. No one in a major national sport thinks, grow the base. They think, grow the market. You're talking about a direct emphasis on grow the base, Jamie is talking about grow the market.
I think it is premature to nix what Jamie is saying. Americans buy trillions of dollars of garbage, a lot of it on line or media garbage, every year. We do so because of "good" marketing, not cause someone put a great football field in. A lot of things drive sales and most of them are marketing based, not beating the ground.
Our grassroots growth is due to feet on the ground and the efforts on the part of the PDGA and local people, sort of. At some point that will switch over to media selling, if the sport grows into a "large" sport. Frankly, by what I'm seeing, the switch over is on the cusp. I'm seeing a huge growth in online participation of events. When 50,000 people watch a video, how may are active players? How many are active PDGA members? How many casual players watch that and think about elevating their game? The number of casual "observers" that ask me about the discs in my hand, or express an interest because they played once in college, is rather large. That online video thing, it's a huge resource that I direct them to. Even more, as a way to get players to invest at a higher level, it's huge. When I started playing 20 years ago, I had a cloth sack and ten discs. The number of guys with "real" bags was tournament players. Most locals made their own carts with baskets to hold discs. Lets call the whole thing a $200 investment. The number of guys I see with a $2,000 investment today is the majority of tournament players. Even the league players often have a $500 investment. I'm going to credit marketing with some of that.
Secondly, I'm gonna agree with Jamie's assessment that Innova has helped the PDGA grow the sport. They've done it in two ways. On the ground, events and event support, and via direct marketing of online content. They aren't the only ones, but they are certainly a leader. I don't know who started the notion of manufacturers backing events. It could have been Discraft, but I certainly wouldn't undersell the efforts of the manufacturers in growing the sport.
[joke on] biscoe is a farmer? I didn't know that growing pot made you a farmer...[joke off] Sorry biscoe, being a farmer these days is tough, I just couldn't resist.
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Muddyboots
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2009
- Messages
- 906
Lyle, I suggest removing your last two lines. Not accurate, germane, or amusing. If you want anyone to read and appreciate your diatribes, you could at least keep them completely relevant.
LukeButch
Birdie Member
lead card players deserve to be on film...but this is where 2nd and 3rd card coverage is helpful. 2nd card MPO coverage >> FPO lead card coverage in every way possible. entertainment, views, skill level, etc, etc.
Muddyboots
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2009
- Messages
- 906
^probably not a woman
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Its not like the 2nd and 3rd card coverage for round 2 would have been any better. There would have been several unknowns on those cards had they been filmed. Round3 it would have been better...
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
How does an "unknown" playing well become "known"? If an "unknown" is playing well, why are they not worth watching?
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Well Chuck, you know how people are. They are almost more picky about stuff they get for free...
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