2019 European Open

[SD86]

Par isn't the problem. The course is the problem for FPO. The top women are 970 rated. They're better served playing Blue level courses, not Gold. The Beast is a true Gold level course.

I don't think changing the pars does much to affect anything. Some of the holes are simply ill-suited for their skill level regardless of the par. Paige even makes that point (indirectly) in the commentary when she suggests that with a couple holes, where the women might want to lay-up is as fraught with as much or more danger than just going for it. So they go for it...and miss.

Some shorter tees, tees that enable more of the women than just Paige and Henna and maybe Evelina to be able to access the designed landing zones, would do wonders for the competitiveness and play-ability of the course for FPO.

I don't disagree with any of that, but after watching the first two rounds of the FPO and MPO, I've come to the conclusion that it may not matter where they tee off from, to wit:

The MPO top players can approach, and they can putt. I watched Simon Lizotte can 40 ft. putts with seeming ease, and of course Paul, Wysocki, and Eagle putt well. And the approaches and versatile shots from seemingly difficult positions never ceases to amaze.

But the FPO? I apologize in advance; I want the women to do well. But they can't putt. Even inside the circle. Catrina Allen, one of the top 3 or 4 best female DG players on the planet... misses 6 foot putts. Paige Pierce has gotten some of her putting form and confidence back, but even she is nowhere near the top several cards of MPO players. And we're not talking all that great distances, here.

And while the MPO players are good enough at putting they don't need to be super-accurate in their approaches... they are. McBeth's black Zone leaves his hand from just about anywhere, and shows up inside the bullseye circle. Same with the other MPO players; you know they're going to be close. But the FPOs? It's just not the same. Sure the guys have bad shots and bad holes, but some of these ladies... and some of the best of them, just aren't nearly as consistently good.

So let the ladies tee off on the men's tees, and they might average a full extra throw more than the men. Or let them tee off from closer. In the European Open it doesn't seem to matter... because the FPO players aren't putting nor approaching nearly as well as their MPO counterparts.

TL;DR: MPO can putt lights out; FPO can't. opcorn:

 

[Jolt]

Paiges stats are really weird.

R1 she shot a 1012 rated 61 round . . but she only had 69% C1x putting and 3 OBs
R2 she had 75% C1x putting and only one OB. . but still shot one throw worse than R1.
R3 she was perfect in C1x . .but still shot 4 throws worse than R1!

 

[Jolt]

Looks like an odd start order today. . all but the top 20 MPO have started R4 . . . and now the FPO starts. . and 10min after the FPO lead card goes out the top 20 MPO starts?

Hard to get any gallery for the top FPO cards this way. .

 

[RistoS]

Looks like an odd start order today. . all but the top 20 MPO have started R4 . . . and now the FPO starts. . and 10min after the FPO lead card goes out the top 20 MPO starts?

Hard to get any gallery for the top FPO cards this way. .

It's the exact opposite, afternoon is when people go out and watch. Many just hang out around holes near the tournament center, because for casual spectators it's more convenient than to follow one card the whole round. There's side activities and food close by as well.

 

[RistoS]

FPO started somewhere around noon yesterday as well. So much for no gallery based on the coverage. Estimated 2200 people in attendance that day.

 

[Jolt]

It's the exact opposite, afternoon is when people go out and watch. Many just hang out around holes near the tournament center, because for casual spectators it's more convenient than to follow one card the whole round. There's side activities and food close by as well.

But if the FPO had started first they would have been done as the lead MPO card starts. . so you could watch both the FPO and MPO lead cards

As it is now the MPO lead card is on hole 4 and the FPO on hole 12.

But then again, as you say most people go out and watch in the afternoon so this way may be better

 

[Jolt]

Total meltdown on hole 16 for Paige and Kristin. . strange

 

[JC17393]

Total meltdown on hole 16 for Paige and Kristin. . strange

That's the hole with the island green and the bunCR rules, where you re-throw until you land on the green. Tin-cupping into that green is what I assume is the culprit for those scores. Doesn't seem all that strange to me, especially if the wind is up at all.

 

[Streets]

Very hard to have 1500 people in the gallery at Idewild. . .

Lol and...? I couldn't care less about gallery size...I want to see good disc golf on a great course.

 

[Jolt]

That's the hole with the island green and the bunCR rules, where you re-throw until you land on the green. Tin-cupping into that green is what I assume is the culprit for those scores. Doesn't seem all that strange to me, especially if the wind is up at all.

Yes, but you kind of can lay that second shot up instead of throwing your whole bag at the island
Says alot that Paige can take a 9 and still have the second best round

Does not matter much for Paige but Kristin had the hot round up to that point

 

[Jolt]

. . what happens if you "run out of discs" on that hole 16? . . no way you can run up and get one of the ones you thrown in 30sec

 

[JC17393]

Yes, but you kind of can lay that second shot up instead of throwing your whole bag at the island

Still have to cross the bunCR at some point. And with no penalty for missing, it's hard to argue that laying up and pitching over (2 throws) is a better play than just getting on the green from where you are (1 throw). Even if you've missed two or three times in a row.

I suppose if they're missing short each time and they're running out of discs to throw that kind of distance, laying up is wise. But I'm guessing that wasn't the case and perhaps they were missing long or wide so distance wasn't the problem. It was accuracy. And shorter shots aren't necessarily easier to throw accurately, especially when it has to land in a defined area. I know I'd rather be at 200-250 than 120-150 feet on an approach like that.

 

[JC17393]

. . what happens if you "run out of discs" on that hole 16? . . no way you can run up and get one of the ones you thrown in 30sec

Case can be made that not having a disc to throw is a "distraction" that allows you to delay the start of a 30 second clock.

But also, there's no rule saying that it has to be the thrower that retrieves the discs. Could be a spotter, or a spectator, or a cardmate, or a caddy that runs up and retrieves discs. Perhaps before the player gets down to their final disc.

 

[biscoe]

I don't disagree with any of that, but after watching the first two rounds of the FPO and MPO, I've come to the conclusion that it may not matter where they tee off from, to wit:

The MPO top players can approach, and they can putt. I watched Simon Lizotte can 40 ft. putts with seeming ease, and of course Paul, Wysocki, and Eagle putt well. And the approaches and versatile shots from seemingly difficult positions never ceases to amaze.

But the FPO? I apologize in advance; I want the women to do well. But they can't putt. Even inside the circle. Catrina Allen, one of the top 3 or 4 best female DG players on the planet... misses 6 foot putts. Paige Pierce has gotten some of her putting form and confidence back, but even she is nowhere near the top several cards of MPO players. And we're not talking all that great distances, here.

And while the MPO players are good enough at putting they don't need to be super-accurate in their approaches... they are. McBeth's black Zone leaves his hand from just about anywhere, and shows up inside the bullseye circle. Same with the other MPO players; you know they're going to be close. But the FPOs? It's just not the same. Sure the guys have bad shots and bad holes, but some of these ladies... and some of the best of them, just aren't nearly as consistently good.

So let the ladies tee off on the men's tees, and they might average a full extra throw more than the men. Or let them tee off from closer. In the European Open it doesn't seem to matter... because the FPO players aren't putting nor approaching nearly as well as their MPO counterparts.

TL;DR: MPO can putt lights out; FPO can't. opcorn:

It is because putting and approaching from a stand still require upper body strength.

 

[Jolt]

Insane battle in MPO. . SO many players close in score at the top. .

 

[Jolt]

MPO is live on PDGA Facebook

 

[Streets]

And Paul's got another one in the bag... *yawn*

 

[RistoS]

MPO is live on PDGA Facebook

It's at least 10 minutes behind actual play so hard to consider it "live" per se. It has probably lagged so much because apparently there's more than 4000 people.

 

[SD86]

It is because putting and approaching from a stand still require upper body strength.

Except that they're not missing due to lack of strength; their putts are not falling out of the air short of the basket (especially the short ones Cat has missed). They're just not throwing accurately, so sorry, and I'm not sure why...

 

[Jolt]

It is because putting and approaching from a stand still require upper body strength.

But if you compare Paul and Paiges 2019 UDisc stats for putting.

Paul have 83% C1x and 30% C2
Paige have 67% C1x and 21% C2

Thats not a huge difference . . and no offence to Paige but upper body strength is not the first thing that comes to mind.

Fairway Hits
Parked
Circle 1 in Regulation
Circle 2 in Regulation

Those stats stands out more in Pauls favor than the putting stats