Am world BAGGERS

[AndyJB]

@AndyJB

Excellent post.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the complainers aren't PDGA members, aren't going to be PDGA members, and thus can't vote to change the rules. Gripes is all they have.

Note that some, I believe The Hammer among them, aren't saying he should be forced to move up....only that he should be shamed into moving up.

I respect The Hammer because, like me, he is not afraid to get out and tell everyone exactly what he feels. He is also making the point that it doesn't effect him either way, because he plays Open. Most of this just rambling, self-centered nonsense.

If you are a PDGA member, you have a vote. Bring this up, if it is that big of a concern, and we will all vote on it. But I think the current ratings caps are just fine.

 

[DavidSauls]

So as soon as an actual player jumps in, everyone gives him props?

Classic!

 

[Dave242]

Classic? I would say it's a lazy observation. If it were the same people who were ragging on them turning around and cheering for them that would be different. There are a lot of different opinions/perspectives represented on a thread like this.... And lots of different people popping in and out. Hard to keep them all apart.

 

[DavidSauls]

Fair point.

But whichever people are bashing the 1000-rated am, are silent about the 998-rated am, even when other posts are praising him.

(Some have the valid defense that they've been bashing the 1000-rated am not just because of his rating, but his lengthy and successful run in the Advanced ranks, which I believe is a different story for the 998-rated player. I get that, too).

 

[redwrath]

Either the definition of the word needs to change or what we call top ranked players who aren't making any money needs to change. I vote for the latter.

It's an issue of semantics, there is (and will be) a need for a designation that denotes high quality of play.

I haven't looked it up, but based on the way individuals toss the word "professional" around my workplace, I would bet a few pushups there is likely to already be more than one definition.

Other established groups have used the 'pro' designation for years without dramatics. I suppose the matter could be brought before the PDGA were it causing problems for folks and there needed to be a vote....

 

[Three Putt]

Fair point.

But whichever people are bashing the 1000-rated am, are silent about the 998-rated am, even when other posts are praising him.

(Some have the valid defense that they've been bashing the 1000-rated am not just because of his rating, but his lengthy and successful run in the Advanced ranks, which I believe is a different story for the 998-rated player. I get that, too).

It really is a gray area.

Matt Hall won Mid Nationals the first time they held that event; it was a ratings-based Major where you were slotted by your rating. He won by 10 strokes. Am World's was a month later, and by then people were screaming that Matt Hall was a bagger and should have moved up the second he crushed the field at Mid Nationals. He was a kid. He was 15 or 16 years old. People really thought a kid should have been forced into the Open field because he won a Major.

He finished 2nd at Am World's to Jack Schmalfeld. No offense meant since the guy won Am Worlds and that deserves some respect, but who on this board remembers Jack Schmalfeld? He was your Am World's winner eight years ago.

A lot of us remember Matt because he grew up to be an Internet troll.

So it's this blurry line. It's OK today for Stephen to be at Am World's despite his high ratings because he is 19 and a nice kid. It wasn't OK for Matt Hall to be at Am World's when he was younger and rated 973 because he won a big event the month before.

There are no rules. We just arbitrarily call people baggers for fun. :|

 

[Discwrangler]

Ratings based and Major should always be mutually exclusive terms in DG.

 

[scarpfish]

The myriad of one size fits all mountainous solutions to solve a molehill of a problem in this thread is mind boggling.

 

[The Hammer]

Fair point.

But whichever people are bashing the 1000-rated am, are silent about the 998-rated am, even when other posts are praising him.

(Some have the valid defense that they've been bashing the 1000-rated am not just because of his rating, but his lengthy and successful run in the Advanced ranks, which I believe is a different story for the 998-rated player. I get that, too).

I'm in the boat that is only ragging on the guy based on his lengthy win history and refusal to play in the pro division (even if he only accepted merch). I respect Steven Jacobs because he has at least been playing in the pro division throughout the year. The high ratings honestly mean very little to me. It's the constant beating up on ams that I find whack.

 

[Three Putt]

(Some have the valid defense that they've been bashing the 1000-rated am not just because of his rating, but his lengthy and successful run in the Advanced ranks, which I believe is a different story for the 998-rated player. I get that, too).

Here is the thing: There is a right way and wrong way to bag. If you want to win an Am Championship, you have to get up around 970-980 to have a serious shot. You will start hearing the bagger call at about 940. :| Everyone in contention at any major Am tournament has been called a bagger. You have to be a bagger to be good enough to be there.

To bag correctly, you play Open in local events/B & C Tiers from 950 on and decline the cash if you win something. Open players love these guys; they are donating their entry fee to the Open payout "like they should" and play ADV in events that for the most part the Open guys can't play in anyway.

The guys that get David Stearns all worked up are guys that play ADV, win events, get a high rating and show no interest in moving up. They play ADV in local/B & C Tiers and win. Those guys are not donating their entry fee to the Open payout, they are winning ADV payouts. They are not paying their dues.

It goes back to what Am disc golf was supposed to be in the beginning: A ready pool of players to move up and donate money via entry fees to Open payouts. If you don't do that, you are a problem to Open players. They will call you a bagger and a douchebag and start threads about what an ass you are on the Interwebz becasue you are baging the wrong way. If you are donating your entry fee to the Open payout at most of the events you play in, no one cares if you technically qualify for Am status and go play at Am World's. You are a good guy and people root for you; you bagged the right way.

In the end that's all bagging is about: are you going to move up and donate your entry fee the the Open Payout. That was what it was about in the beginning and that is what it is about today.

 

[The Hammer]

I respect The Hammer because, like me, he is not afraid to get out and tell everyone exactly what he feels. He is also making the point that it doesn't effect him either way, because he plays Open. Most of this just rambling, self-centered nonsense.

If you are a PDGA member, you have a vote. Bring this up, if it is that big of a concern, and we will all vote on it. But I think the current ratings caps are just fine.

Thank you. Yes, it doesn't really affect me one way or the other. I just think it kind of an ******* mentality to keep beating lesser skilled golfers over and over, when there is another division of better golfers that is available. I just don't appreciate people being *******s whether it's in golf, or any where else in life. I'm just the blowhard that will speak up about it, even if it makes people dislike me.

 

[Three Putt]

I'm in the boat that is only ragging on the guy based on his lengthy win history and refusal to play in the pro division (even if he only accepted merch). I respect Steven Jacobs because he has at least been playing in the pro division throughout the year. The high ratings honestly mean very little to me. It's the constant beating up on ams that I find whack.

Because he is supposed to move up and get beat up on by you. That is what the system was set up to do, and that is what we demand from him. That is what you did when you were in his shoes. That this is a hobby for him at best and we are removing his options of how he would like to participate in his hobby does not matter. We get to decide what he should or shouldn't do. He must make the same decision that you made because that is the only acceptable option we give.

 

[The Hammer]

Here is the thing: There is a right way and wrong way to bag. If you want to win an Am Championship, you have to get up around 970-980 to have a serious shot. You will start hearing the bagger call at about 940. :| Everyone in contention at any major Am tournament has been called a bagger. You have to be a bagger to be good enough to be there.

To bag correctly, you play Open in local events/B & C Tiers from 950 on and decline the cash if you win something. Open players love these guys; they are donating their entry fee to the Open payout "like they should" and play ADV in events that for the most part the Open guys can't play in anyway.

The guys that get David Stearns all worked up are guys that play ADV, win events, get a high rating and show no interest in moving up. They play ADV in local/B & C Tiers and win. Those guys are not donating their entry fee to the Open payout, they are winning ADV payouts. They are not paying their dues.

It goes back to what Am disc golf was supposed to be in the beginning: A ready pool of players to move up and donate money via entry fees to Open payouts. If you don't do that, you are a problem to Open players. They will call you a bagger and a douchebag and start threads about what an ass you are on the Interwebz becasue you are baging the wrong way. If you are donating your entry fee to the Open payout at most of the events you play in, no one cares if you technically qualify for Am status and go play at Am World's. You are a good guy and people root for you; you bagged the right way.

In the end that's all bagging is about: are you going to move up and donate your entry fee the the Open Payout. That was what it was about in the beginning and that is what it is about today.

Kinda, sorta, not really. There are lots of people that move up and aren't donating, they are cashing. The guys that bother me are the ones that would obviously be cashing as a pro, but still refusing to move up becuase it's harder. They have a problem with it being tough to win. They complain that they would have to actually shoot above their rating to win. I don't understand why you would feel you should be winning for playing average, or below average golf.

 

[The Hammer]

Because he is supposed to move up and get beat up on by you. That is what the system was set up to do, and that is what we demand from him. That is what you did when you were in his shoes. That this is a hobby for him at best and we are removing his options of how he would like to participate in his hobby does not matter. We get to decide what he should or shouldn't do. He must make the same decision that you made because that is the only acceptable option we give.

I'm not saying he must do anything. I've said it before that I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything. I'm just saying if he chooses to do as he has then he should be ready to catch some **** for it.

 

[Three Putt]

Kinda, sorta, not really. There are lots of people that move up and aren't donating, they are cashing. The guys that bother me are the ones that would obviously be cashing as a pro, but still refusing to move up becuase it's harder. They have a problem with it being tough to win. They complain that they would have to actually shoot above their rating to win. I don't understand why you would feel you should be winning for playing average, or below average golf.

It's the system we set up and the people we attracted. There was this decision at some point that we had to bribe people to play disc golf , so we set up these crazy Am payouts. Now that we have them, people seem surprised that we have attracted a bunch of players that are here because they want the crazy Am payouts. It's like opening an ice cream store and being surprised that a bunch of fat people come in every day.

 

[The Hammer]

I do think it is whack to not move up becuase you might actually not cash once in a while. Most people that are forced to move up in the lower divisions don't start cahsing, or winning right away. I don't see those guys pissing and moaning that they aren't winning immediately. Why should the pro division be any different?

 

[The Hammer]

It's they system we set up and the people we attracted. There was this decision at some point that we had to bribe people to play disc golf , so we set up these crazy Am payouts. Now that we have them, people seem surprised that we have attracted a bunch of players that are here because they want the crazy Am payouts. It's like opening an ice cream store and being surprised that a bunch of fat people come in every day.

I could not agree more.

I love it when Three Putt speaks his mind.

 

[Three Putt]

I'm not saying he must do anything. I've said it before that I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything. I'm just saying if he chooses to do as he has then he should be ready to catch some **** for it.

If they are catching **** (and it's not good-natured **** like you give your buddy for washing his Camaro too often) then obviously we think they are doing something wrong.

 

[New013]

So we can look at a guys rating a call him a bagger. So what? Who cares? He doesn't. No one really ever has.

well apparently a lot of people in this thread including yourself care. if none of you did you wouldn't be so up in arms about us calling a few people baggers.

I'm not saying he must do anything. I've said it before that I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything. I'm just saying if he chooses to do as he has then he should be ready to catch some **** for it.

Hammer and I have been saying this the entire time, I'm not sure how many other people are in our boat but it's kind of weird people keep popping in the thread and calling us jealous *******s just because were pointing out a fact of disc golf culture.

clearly there's basically three ideas on this.

1 - people should be able to choose where they play and not get **** for it
2 - people should be able to choose where they play but if they're dominating their respected division they should move up or accept the fact they will be criticized.
3 - people should not be able to choose where they play, it should be based completely on their skill level and if you're above a certain rating you should play Open

i'm a 2 and my goal isn't to shame that guy in to moving up or hurt anyones feelings because i don't really care where he plays or what he does. it's all in fun for me, maybe it's not for others i can't really tell were on the internet. like i've been saying if you're being a called a bagger you've earned it so it shouldn't hurt your feelings. just accept the fact it's going to happen and laugh at them and hold up your trophy if that's how you want it. now if you're tired of it move up and compete at a higher level like the red blooded american you were born to be.

i just don't really get other people getting so upset about it, this **** isn't that serious.

It's they system we set up and the people we attracted. There was this decision at some point that we had to bribe people to play disc golf , so we set up these crazy Am payouts. Now that we have them, people seem surprised that we have attracted a bunch of players that are here because they want the crazy Am payouts. It's like opening an ice cream store and being surprised that a bunch of fat people come in every day.

definitely true, however i'm tired of people acting like the system doesn't allow another way of doing things. TD's are freely able to set up their tourneys in a way that is lower cost with no payouts. if more people go this route maybe you'll get more people in the ice cream store who just want the cherry trophy on top and none of the ice cream.

be the change you want in the system, people against payouts should stop coming on here and yelling at us for being happy with the way things are. i like the idea of playing for something more than a trophy, i don't give a **** about trophies. the satisfaction of winning is a lot better than a trophy but it's human nature to want a little cream when you've succeeded.

should we be paying out half a field, no that's silly. i finished 9th my last tourney and cashed after i played two decent rounds and two bad rounds. i didnt earn that reward and honestly feel it's kind of weird for rewarding 9th place in an Am division. i say cash out the top 3 and leave it at that, let the TD take the rest for his work and maybe pass on some love to the people who helped make it possible.

 

[Halcón]

2 - people should be able to choose where they play but if they're dominating their respected division they should move up or accept the fact they will be criticized.

2.5 - This, but if you are dominating, you should not be allowed to play in said division. Maybe penalized...like no payout, or something.

Bagging may not be as big a problem as we're making it out to be in this thread. But, I'm sure it happens often. There are over 2,000 events each year. (Sanctioned/Non-sanctioned) It's out there, and it should be stopped, if possible.