Am world BAGGERS

[Three Putt]

definitely true, however i'm tired of people acting like the system doesn't allow another way of doing things. TD's are freely able to set up their tourneys in a way that is lower cost with no payouts. if more people go this route maybe you'll get more people in the ice cream store who just want the cherry trophy on top and none of the ice cream.

be the change you want in the system, people against payouts should stop coming on here and yelling at us for being happy with the way things are. i like the idea of playing for something more than a trophy, i don't give a **** about trophies. the satisfaction of winning is a lot better than a trophy but it's human nature to want a little cream when you've succeeded.

should we be paying out half a field, no that's silly. i finished 9th my last tourney and cashed after i played two decent rounds and two bad rounds. i didnt earn that reward and honestly feel it's kind of weird for rewarding 9th place in an Am division. i say cash out the top 3 and leave it at that, let the TD take the rest for his work and maybe pass on some love to the people who helped make it possible.

Change is hard. The PDGA is scared to death to change the payout scales. They think people will run unsanctioned events using the old payout scale and the Am players will follow OR that a huge % of Am players will just quit. They honestly don't believe in the product of disc golf enough to be confident that if they adopt a realistic Am payout scale that everything will be alright and the sport (and the PDGA) will survive and thrive.

The PDGA drives tournament play. Most places I've seen use the PDGA payout scale even for local unsanctioned events because that it what disc golfers expect. To really change the Am payout scales, the PDGA has to take the lead.

 

[Three Putt]

well apparently a lot of people in this thread including yourself care. if none of you did you wouldn't be so up in arms about us calling a few people baggers.

You greatly misunderstand me. I could not care less if you paid me. I just couldn't get anyone to respond in the Mako3 thread. :| Get some posts in there and I'm gone!

 

[gcr_russell]

Arizona's young people are the real baggers. Running away with it in the under 13 and under 16 divisions. The respective winners of the Treebash Open in Advanced and Open a month and a half ago.

 

[JC17393]

Change is hard. The PDGA is scared to death to change the payout scales. They think people will run unsanctioned events using the old payout scale and the Am players will follow OR that a huge % of Am players will just quit. They honestly don't believe in the product of disc golf enough to be confident that if they adopt a realistic Am payout scale that everything will be alright and the sport (and the PDGA) will survive and thrive.

The PDGA drives tournament play. Most places I've seen use the PDGA payout scale even for local unsanctioned events because that it what disc golfers expect. To really change the Am payout scales, the PDGA has to take the lead.

Aren't they doing that with a lot of the big scale am events? The whole "true amateur" concept that caused all sorts of controversy when this Worlds event was tagged with it? Some of the am events that have run simultaneously to the NTs (Memorial, for one) have run the same way...heavy emphasis on the player pack, less emphasis on payout to the point of calling it "trophy-only".

You're right that change is hard and it won't happen overnight, but I see the PDGA trying to push things in a direction away from the "stacks of plastic to the winners" model of amateur events.

 

[Dave242]

I do think it is whack to not move up becuase you might actually not cash once in a while. Most people that are forced to move up in the lower divisions don't start cahsing, or winning right away. I don't see those guys pissing and moaning that they aren't winning immediately. Why should the pro division be any different?

You do not see a lot of them pissing and moaning since a lot of them end up on the "move up, move up, move out" track where they just stop competing once they get into that 985 range and find that their game has plateaued. Not everybody is like you and gets all outspoken on an internet discussion board when they have a couple of issues with things.

 

[Three Putt]

2.5 - This, but if you are dominating, you should not be allowed to play in said division. Maybe penalized...like no payout, or something.

Bagging may not be as big a problem as we're making it out to be in this thread. But, I'm sure it happens often. There are over 2,000 events each year. (Sanctioned/Non-sanctioned) It's out there, and it should be stopped, if possible.

Bagging is our culture. The social fear of being called a bagger makes 925-rated guys play Open. Like I have said before, that was always the point. Creating a larger pool of Open players was always the point, and using the social pressure of the bagger putdown to shame people into playing over their heads is part of how this is accomplished.

That clouds this issue. It clouds the issue because calling someone a bagger is so overused and starts waaayyy before you are actually bagging. This "issue" includes calling a 920-rated guy a bagger for playing INT and calling a 940-rated guy a bagger for playing Advanced when they are not bagging at all; they are playing right where they should. The bagger call starts so early that by the time you are actually bagging, you probably have gotten used to it.

So bagging happens. It doesn't happen nearly as often as people think, and a huge % of what people identify as bagging isn't really bagging. But...it does happen.

RANDOM THOUGHT: Ratings were a way to help with this issue, but they probably hurt the ability to use social pressure. That 920-rated guy probably hung up a 970-rated round one time. In the old days, you would judge your ability on what you did on your best day and that 920-rated guy might jump to Open based on that hot round he had. Now he can look at his rounds, realize that he threw an 860-rated round the next weekend and stay in INT. Being rated 920 takes away the illusion that you really are awesome, and when you get called a bagger you can blurt out your rating as your defense. I know three or four guys that played Open in the 90's but applied for amnesty to go back to Am after they found out what their rating actually was. Before they were rated, they had no idea how bad they really were.

 

[New013]

it's funny how a good amount of people hold up two conflicting arguments. on one hand you're saying well these guys at the top of advanced can't really compete in open so when they move up they're basically just donating their money to the better guys and that's not fair to them. they should be able to play where they want and have a chance to win if that's what they choose.

then on the other hand you're saying well Ams shouldn't be competing for anything other than a trophy, this entire play for plastic scheme is ruining the game.

so..... basically you're saying we shouldn't force people to compete in a division where they have no chance of winning anything while also allowing them to compete in a division where you're forcing them to have no chance of winning anything?

i don't see much of a difference there. how is a guy playing in open and just donating his money much different than a guy playing advanced and just donating his money.

 

[Ryan P.]

Yes, though I strongly recommend you avoid reading all 480 posts just to find his post. It's not worth it.

Haha, thanks for the heads up. I won't.

 

[The Hammer]

You do not see a lot of them pissing and moaning since a lot of them end up on the "move up, move up, move out" track where they just stop competing once they get into that 985 range and find that their game has plateaued. Not everybody is like you and gets all outspoken on an internet discussion board when they have a couple of issues with things.

No, but maybe they should. Being outspoken generates discussion, which in turn can generate change. If people don't like things but remain silent, the status quo is maintained. How can anyone expect things they dislike to ever change if they don't speak up?

 

[digital]

Thanks for all the love I've received in this thread!

you're putting a hurting on those guys!

 

[Three Putt]

it's funny how a good amount of people hold up two conflicting arguments. on one hand you're saying well these guys at the top of advanced can't really compete in open so when they move up they're basically just donating their money to the better guys and that's not fair to them. they should be able to play where they want and have a chance to win if that's what they choose.

then on the other hand you're saying well Ams shouldn't be competing for anything other than a trophy, this entire play for plastic scheme is ruining the game.

so..... basically you're saying we shouldn't force people to compete in a division where they have no chance of winning anything while also allowing them to compete in a division where you're forcing them to have no chance of winning anything?

i don't see much of a difference there. how is a guy playing in open and just donating his money much different than a guy playing advanced and just donating his money.

You are ignoring what makes Amateur play Amateur. If you win a trophy, you still win. A lot of people in a lot of sports compete for trophies because they want to win. If your team wins a softball tournament, everybody knows it's not like winning the World Series. People still come out and compete to have fun. Are you the best ball team in the World? Nah, just the best team that signed up to play in that tournament that weekend. People still do it.

You also give someone an incentive to improve and try to compete in Open if Open has something to win that Amateur does not. If you don't care about the award, you can stay Amateur. By having a system that pays Amateurs, you are asking a top ADV player to forgo a good sized payout and move up to try to improve so that they can win cash in Open. Some guys do. Other guys see no reason to pass up the sure ADV payout. The added fact that you can't make a living wining last cash in disc golf makes it even less likely; you are still going to need a job even if you get to be a decent Open disc golfer. Why not just play ADV, win a bunch of merch and have fun?

This particular event is trophy-only, but to stay Am generally does not require a decision to play for trophies VS a payout. Our system actually requires you to pass up a fat merch payout to try to compete in Open. Why we are surprised when people decide to say in ADV and win a bunch of merch is beyond me. We have the most bagger-friendly system around and then are surprised that we have baggers. :|

 

[disc qualified]

Got a problem with "baggers"?

Maybe you should work on your putting, focus on you and worry less about them.

 

[New013]

Got a problem with "baggers"?

Maybe you should work on your putting, focus on you and worry less about them.

I don't have a problem with baggers but people seem to have a problem with me calling them baggers. I think some of you should rethink who has the problem here.

 

[disc qualified]

I was speaking generally, not to anyone specifically and I agree some folks are focusing on the wrong things.

Personally, i'd be flattered if i was called a bagger. That would mean i was finally winning and not just finishing 3rd or 4th.

 

[The Hammer]

What does my putting have to do with baggers?

If you see a big third grader picking on his classmates, do you ignore it and focus on you?

 

[New013]

@3 Putt - Let's look at it from this perspective.

There is no difference between forcing a 1000 rated Adv player to move up to Open and compete than forcing a 900 rated Rec player to move up to Int. If it's okay to let one level of player stay and compete to win then it should be okay for everybody.

Nobody is forcing Open players to accept cash, they can move up to Open and play for plastic just like they were in Adv. So if you're saying it's unfair to force Adv players to move up and they should be allowed to stay and dominate a division where they clearly outclass a majority of that division then it should be the same for all divisions. 960 players should be allowed to play Int and always compete for the win. 920 players should be allowed to play Rec and always compete for the win.

Beyond the already admitted bull**** designations of Pro/Am what difference is there really between Adv/Open and Int/Adv? The money? Well like I said take the money out of it because you can play Open and accept fake money in lieu of actual cash.

A lot of you want to put us all on the same playing field so let's do it. Put a cut off rating at the top of Adv just like you're doing to other divisions. You can't say Adv is a top division and shouldn't have a cutoff while also saying there really is no difference between most pros and ams. There either is or isnt a difference.

 

[disc qualified]

What does my putting have to do with baggers?

If you see a big third grader picking on his classmates, do you ignore it and focus on you?

If we're talking physical violence situations, i will take that bigger 3rd grader, cover him in honey and duct tape him to an ant mound.

If we're talking a situation where somebody plays a better game than you then you better work on your game.



(As long as the curret sytem remains in place, I'll continue to focus on me and my game, focusing my mental energy on bettering myself)

 

[Halcón]

What does my putting have to do with baggers?

If you see a big third grader picking on his classmates, do you ignore it and focus on you?

Exactly. How can we, as players is a competition, not be opposed to cheating, no matter how much a part of our "culture" it is?

True bagging does not follow this:

The Spirit of the Game
Disc golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of disc golf.

 

[The Hammer]

If we're talking physical violence situations, i will take that bigger 3rd grader, cover him in honey and duct tape him to an ant mound.

If we're talking a situation where somebody plays a better game than you then you better work on your game.



(As long as the curret sytem remains in place, I'll continue to focus on me and my game, focusing my mental energy on bettering myself)

Love the ant hill idea!

You realize I'm not crying "bagger" about someone who is beating me, or even in the same division, right? I already made the jump. I also put in about an hour per day on a putting basket.

 

[discgolf4lif3]

okay so he will go from winning nearly every amms tourny he plays to placing or winning every other open tourny he plays... wow sounds so horrible..