Define "Professional" Disc Golfer

[oldmandiscer]

It just doesn't see relevant to this conversation.

A golf pro might go to college to get a degree in that field, then go get professional certification, then apply for a job, and interview and get chosen.

That's like apples to elephants to compare to a dude that plays local disc golf tournaments in open.

There are hundreds of smaller "ball" golf pro events as well or smaller tours. Just like disc golf. I've played in a vast number of them. Small tours where no one is making PGA Tour money, hopefully enough to pay for expenses or make a little if you win or finish high enough.

I would consider it semi-pro as nearly all the competitors need a second job to actually make a living.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Blathers on about unrelated garbage as usual.

This discussion isn't about what is and isn't a minor league.

 

[oldmandiscer]

This discussion isn't about what is and isn't a minor league.

If you have to have another job to make a living just call yourself semi-pro. Easy enough.

I was simply making a point that their are low level "pro" players in most sports. Just call them semi-pro's and quit worrying about it.

 

[ejvogie]

I won $20 on some nickel slots in Vegas in 1995.





I guess I'm a professional gambler :|

 

[jupiterboy]

I won $20 on some nickel slots in Vegas in 1995.





I guess I'm a professional gambler :|

If you can live on $20 and some nickels, yes.

 

[autocrosscrx]

There are hundreds of smaller "ball" golf pro events as well or smaller tours. Just like disc golf. I've played in a vast number of them. Small tours where no one is making PGA Tour money, hopefully enough to pay for expenses or make a little if you win or finish high enough.

I would consider it semi-pro as nearly all the competitors need a second job to actually make a living.

I don't understand the relationship between my post and your post.

 

[jmdaire27]

When I cashed at my first MPO event, I got to present my turning professional at disc golf as a joke at the following family gathering. That's how I feel about me being considered a professional disc golfer.

Though I agree that to be a professional at anything you should be able to make a living off of what you are doing, it seems that all you might need is a paycheck, no matter the size. However, if the definition of "pro" (via the several cited sources) says you don't need to make a living off of the activity, I find it strange that "semi-pro" is defined 'receiving payment for an activity but not relying entirely on it for a living; semiprofessional' (cite - quick google search) which literally describes 99% of disc golf "pros." No? Hmm.

This has been a fun read this morning. And I always feel these types of discussions could use a poll… ha!

 

[BillFleming]

I won $20 on some nickel slots in Vegas in 1995.

I guess I'm a professional gambler :|

Yep.....you can call yourself that. The truth is that anyone can call themselves a professional. In sports, professional and amateur have specific meanings. It's not about 'how much' money that you make....it's the fact that you CAN make money. In sports, anyone can be a professional....I'm 662 rated in disc golf. I believe I can pay the PDGA membership fee that makes me a professional. I can play in MPO or MP60 if I want and collect money if I place high enough. I CAN do that....but it's not a good idea as I'm not skilled enough. But I would be a professional. An amateur is a player that cannot accept cash as a prize (in a sanctioned tournament/league).

Note....by the exact meaning...if you accept any cash prize at any disc golf tournament, sanctioned or unsanctioned, you are no longer a disc golf amateur. But since the PDGA doesn't 'monitor' unsanctioned tournaments/leagues and players aren't going to self-report that they accepted cash, the PDGA doesn't know you should actually be a professional disc golfer. ((I don't think they care too much about players getting cash in unsanctioned tourneys or leagues)).

 

[BillFleming]

When I cashed at my first MPO event, I got to present my turning professional at disc golf as a joke at the following family gathering. That's how I feel about me being considered a professional disc golfer.

Though I agree that to be a professional at anything you should be able to make a living off of what you are doing, it seems that all you might need is a paycheck, no matter the size. However, if the definition of "pro" (via the several cited sources) says you don't need to make a living off of the activity, I find it strange that "semi-pro" is defined 'receiving payment for an activity but not relying entirely on it for a living; semiprofessional' (cite - quick google search) which literally describes 99% of disc golf "pros." No? Hmm.

This has been a fun read this morning. And I always feel these types of discussions could use a poll… ha!

I agree with you about professional and semi-professional. But the term semi-professional has never been used with the PDGA or, really, in disc golf. Maybe the PDGA needs to start using that....but then as you said, the majority of professionals in disc golf would be semi-pros. And how do you define 'making a living'? Does sponsorship money count? Paul Ulibarri made $23,929 in 2021 from disc golf tournaments....that is barely a living and I would count him as a semi-pro based on the definition of making a living. But add in his sponsorship and YouTube earnings, and now he's making a good living at it. So what counts and what doesn't?

 

[jmdaire27]

I agree with you about professional and semi-professional. But the term semi-professional has never been used with the PDGA or, really, in disc golf. Maybe the PDGA needs to start using that....but then as you said, the majority of professionals in disc golf would be semi-pros. And how do you define 'making a living'? Does sponsorship money count? Paul Ulibarri made $23,929 in 2021 from disc golf tournaments....that is barely a living and I would count him as a semi-pro based on the definition of making a living. But add in his sponsorship and YouTube earnings, and now he's making a good living at it. So what counts and what doesn't?

I've given it thought. And, I'm not sure the 'elites' rely solely on tourney winnings. They earn from salary, disc sales, clinics, incentives, etc. Which, in my eyes at least, are all still 'disc golf' in context, so they ought to be considered a professional of the sport.

I'll say I still feel it's a stretch to call myself a semi pro. It's a hobby I bring home some money to fund my next hobby event. But semipro is more acceptable then pro.

Wonder the level of effort it would be to include/incorporate semipro into the PDGA. Shrugs.

 

[BillFleming]

I've given it thought. And, I'm not sure the 'elites' rely solely on tourney winnings. They earn from salary, disc sales, clinics, incentives, etc. Which, in my eyes at least, are all still 'disc golf' in context, so they ought to be considered a professional of the sport.

I'll say I still feel it's a stretch to call myself a semi pro. It's a hobby I bring home some money to fund my next hobby event. But semipro is more acceptable then pro.

Wonder the level of effort it would be to include/incorporate semipro into the PDGA. Shrugs.

And this is where defining 'pro' and 'semi-pro' gets touchy. Paul McBeth made $88,903 from tournament winnings in 2021. That is 'making a living' money from disc golf. But add in his sponsorship and other 'disc golf' income and he's making a fortune. Is Simon Lizotte a professional? By tournament earnings ($8,586), not even close, but I'm sure there are lots of people that would consider him a professional. Could there be someone who makes a living off of their sponsorship and YouTube, etc.....but doesn't earn anything at tournaments? Possibly. How about someone who owns a disc golf store and plays infrequently....they make a living from disc golf (store)...are they a professional disc golfer?

Again, it's a fine line.....the only thing that is really clear is the amateur status...a person who doesn't get cash for their placement in a <sanctioned> tournament/league.

 

[jupiterboy]

I suspect that the "pro" label evolved as a distinction that meant "not college" where it is illegal to be compensated. That's the distinction.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

The problem in defining real "pro" is the smoothly gradated continuum from the local advanced player who pays the money to the PDGA to play as a "Pro" even though he just started playing last week and Paul McBeth.

There are plenty of sports where the best in the world still have to have a day job to make a living. Does this make them any less a professional in thie sport than players at the top of another sport that make tons of money? I don't think so.

I suspect most roll their eyes at the local, 915-rated player who brings up the rear of the open division at tournaments and lets every disc golf they meet know that they are a "pro" and probably also name drops every "pro" that has ever been on his card. Some people of modest skill/accomplishment are compelled to boast. Some people don't care what you call them. Getting rid of the former isn't practical (no matter how satisfying it might prove) and so I can't imagine that there will ever be an agreement on who gets to call themselves a "pro."

 

[aphilso1]

A lot of mental gymnastics going on in this thread to prove an unproveable point. Playing within a "Pro" division doesn't make you a professional. It just means you're in the same ratings pool as the actual professionals.

If someone asks "what do you do for a living?" and your honest answer is disc golf, then you're a professional. If you answer something else, then you're not.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I don't understand the relationship between my post and your post.

I was adding to it, as many club pro's play in these smaller tour events when they can.

 

[DavidSauls]

I suspect that the "pro" label evolved as a distinction that meant "not college" where it is illegal to be compensated. That's the distinction.

For what it's worth, I believe that disc golf started as "pro"-only, and added amateur division later. At least, at the organized/PDGA level.

 

[jmdaire27]

A lot of mental gymnastics going on in this thread to prove an unproveable point. Playing within a "Pro" division doesn't make you a professional. It just means you're in the same ratings pool as the actual professionals.

If someone asks "what do you do for a living?" and your honest answer is disc golf, then you're a professional. If you answer something else, then you're not.

Very true! This has gotten rather subjective. I view both Uli and Simon as professional disc golfers (as they make money from disc golf activities, whether tourney winnings or Patreon).

But, Aren't these forums literally about arguing moot points, though? Par, basket size, GOAT, best putter (disc… or player)? Add "Pro definition"!

 

[txmxer]

A lot of mental gymnastics going on in this thread to prove an unproveable point. Playing within a "Pro" division doesn't make you a professional. It just means you're in the same ratings pool as the actual professionals.

If someone asks "what do you do for a living?" and your honest answer is disc golf, then you're a professional. If you answer something else, then you're not.

I play disc golf to live.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I agree with you about professional and semi-professional. But the term semi-professional has never been used with the PDGA or, really, in disc golf. Maybe the PDGA needs to start using that....but then as you said, the majority of professionals in disc golf would be semi-pros. And how do you define 'making a living'? Does sponsorship money count? Paul Ulibarri made $23,929 in 2021 from disc golf tournaments....that is barely a living and I would count him as a semi-pro based on the definition of making a living. But add in his sponsorship and YouTube earnings, and now he's making a good living at it. So what counts and what doesn't?

And this is where defining 'pro' and 'semi-pro' gets touchy. Paul McBeth made $88,903 from tournament winnings in 2021. That is 'making a living' money from disc golf. But add in his sponsorship and other 'disc golf' income and he's making a fortune. Is Simon Lizotte a professional? By tournament earnings ($8,586), not even close, but I'm sure there are lots of people that would consider him a professional. Could there be someone who makes a living off of their sponsorship and YouTube, etc.....but doesn't earn anything at tournaments? Possibly. How about someone who owns a disc golf store and plays infrequently....they make a living from disc golf (store)...are they a professional disc golfer?

Again, it's a fine line.....the only thing that is really clear is the amateur status...a person who doesn't get cash for their placement in a <sanctioned> tournament/league.

Very true! This has gotten rather subjective. I view both Uli and Simon as professional disc golfers (as they make money from disc golf activities, whether tourney winnings or Patreon).

But, Aren't these forums literally about arguing moot points, though? Par, basket size, GOAT, best putter (disc… or player)? Add "Pro definition"!

I agree totally with jmdaire's point on the matter. While the exact LINE is blurry, the earnings of the particular players mentioned from YouTube and from their sponsorships are a direct reflection of their status as professional disc golfers. Whether your income comes directly from the tournament earnings is not as important as the fact that they make a living as a direct result of the fact that they are touring disc golfers.

The line gets blurry for non-touring players who earn from Patreon/YouTube - because you begin to have to consider where the line is between being labeled a Professional Disc Golf Coach or a Professional Disc Golf Commentator or a Professional in the Disc Golf community. It is possible that, ultimately, Simon could be considered a Professional Entertainer in the disc golf industry due to injury if he doesn't get it together - but as it is his earnings are very much tied to tournament play, which supports his role/reputation as an entertainer.

But back off the Simon tangent - although a professional in MLB/NBA/NFL/etc. may have supplemental bonuses, overall their earnings are not their "winnings." And so I'd say that folks like Ulibarri are clearly earning enough as disc golfers to truly be considered "professionals."

 

[txmxer]

This thread is what happens in the off season.