How Can We Minimize 'Flukey Rollaways'?

[Norcal]

By definition you cannot apply strategy to flukey shots. Flukey: uncertain, unpredictable and often unexpected. If you find fault in my analogy, then come up with your own. If you've played this game, then you've experienced an unpredictable rollaway that results in a harsh penalty. Random results should be minimized to the greatest extent possible in a game of skill. How can you argue against that notion in good faith? Oh wait...

It's well known in many games and sports that the lower your skill level, the more likely you'll prefer lucky elements in the game and we certainly have them among the posters.

 

[scarpfish]

I would hope that people who have thrown enough plastic know that discs can stand up on end and that there are mechanics a player can impart into their shots to minimize that from happening.

 

[DavidSauls]

No one knows how to putt or can learn to putt in a way where the putt has both a chance to be made and at the same time reduce the flukiness of roll-aways, just like no one knows how to putt to reduce fluky cut-throughs.

This is true, but not exactly the point that I presume Steve was making. You can use skill to make more putts, though a certain percentage of skillfully-thrown putts will bounce out or cut through. You can use skill laying up on rollaway-prone greens, so that a disc is very likely to stick near the basket instead of rolling.

For the putts that miss and roll, they are not a matter of skill. A certain percentage on a given green will do so. Any individual example is a matter of luck. Over time, it's a matter of odds. (The same is true of long drives on reachable baskets).

The strategy involves putting from beyond the sure-thing range, deciding whether to try to make the putt---guessing at the chance of a rollaway penalty if you fail---or playing it safe, laying up to avoid both the made putt, and the rollaway.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

The thing to me is even when you practice putting and miss the discs never land in the same spots or ways. I think punishing a "flukey" rollaway with poor design is bad but not sure they can ever be prevented or stopped unless there is going to be some kind of boarder for each pin and circle area.

It is no different to me if you miss your putt and have to deal with that resulting lie than when you hit a tiny branch and deflect 100's of feet or get a strange gust of wind etc. All part of the game!

Now an island green on a hill hardly 10 meter area and water surrounding the entire basket is just, dumb-- hate when a layup is basically the forced shot.

 

[GT Chris]

By definition you cannot apply strategy to flukey shots. Flukey: uncertain, unpredictable and often unexpected. If you find fault in my analogy, then come up with your own. If you've played this game, then you've experienced an unpredictable rollaway that results in a harsh penalty. Random results should be minimized to the greatest extent possible in a game of skill. How can you argue against that notion in good faith? Oh wait...

I disagree.

Try to look at it from a probabilistic standpoint. Maybe you can't apply strategy to an individual shot, and the outcome of an individual shot is governed by luck. But you can apply strategy to multiple shots across a round or tournament. Imagine that a careful layup rolls away 5% of the time, and a missed putt rolls away 20% of the time. On just one hole both shots can roll away, both shots can settle, or one can roll and the other can settle. But if two players apply these strategies consistently over a 72 hole tournament, the careful layup player could expect 4 rollaways and the missed putts player could expect 14 rollaways. The missed putt player may not always have 10 more rollaways than the careful layup player, but on average it is almost guaranteed that he will have more rollaways. So on average, you can apply strategy to flukey shots.

This is one reason we play multiple rounds in tournaments, to average out flukiness across as many holes as possible.

 

[DavidSauls]

One difficulty in preventing rollaway missed putts---assuming that you do---is that they're usually a side-effect of baskets on slopes, where the primary intent may be to punish putts that miss the basket entirely, and thus to put additional pressure on the putt.

Perhaps you can put logs or other barriers downhill from the basket, where missed putts that bounced off the basket, hit the ground and rolled, don't go too far---while missed putts that flew past the basket without touching it are free to fly downhill and punish the mistake.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

^and just to play devils advocate, having those barriers around the pin could punish good drives or upshots and cause them to roll away or stop short of what otherwise might be a tap-in.

 

[Treeplant]

Yesterday I had three putts only an inch or two low that rolled out down hills 40-70 feet away and turned three birdies into bogies, costing me six strokes instead of three.

I don't get very hot tempered on the course but 70 foot rollouts make me rage. Coming from a ball golf background where holes are supposed to be cut on a level surface it feels like a BS gimmick.

However, when I stop internally whining I tell myself:

Make your putts and it's not a problem.

It's part of the game and one of the areas where players are forced to make more compelling risk/reward decisions. That said, there should be only a few holes with serious slopes under the basket, it's downright annoying if half the holes are on giant side slopes.

 

[markmcc]

Or, lay-up and take the "certain" par. I feel like this is exactly the type of risk-reward scenario that makes disc golf interesting. Some people never lay up, and the long putts that they make are spectacular. But the misses may be very punitive and in some (many) cases they'd have been better off laying up.

I agree that 70 foot roll-aways stink, but they are an integral part of some courses and have to be considered when weighing your options.

 

[joecoin]

Yesterday I had three putts only an inch or two low that rolled out down hills 40-70 feet away and turned three birdies into bogies, costing me six strokes instead of three.

I don't get very hot tempered on the course but 70 foot rollouts make me rage. Coming from a ball golf background where holes are supposed to be cut on a level surface it feels like a BS gimmick.

However, when I stop internally whining I tell myself:

Make your putts and it's not a problem.

It's part of the game and one of the areas where players are forced to make more compelling risk/reward decisions. That said, there should be only a few holes with serious slopes under the basket, it's downright annoying if half the holes are on giant side slopes.

Golf balls are spherical.
Discs are not. Flat is where it's at.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Isn't the possibility of a roll away part of a sloped green? The risk reward of the upshot getting in position to minimize a missed putt and roll is all part of it. Sure occasionally we all sink a putt and get a bad roll, that's just the physics of a disc on a hill.

 

[Jowie]

Ever had a bad shot that worked out all right? Want to mitigate that out of the game too? My group has a saying, "disc golf gods giveth and taketh away."

If you start keeping track, I'd be willing to bet it all comes out fairly equal in the long run.

As the fella said:

 

[JC17393]

Yesterday I had three putts only an inch or two low that rolled out down hills 40-70 feet away and turned three birdies into bogies, costing me six strokes instead of three.

I don't get very hot tempered on the course but 70 foot rollouts make me rage. Coming from a ball golf background where holes are supposed to be cut on a level surface it feels like a BS gimmick.

However, when I stop internally whining I tell myself:

Make your putts and it's not a problem.

It's part of the game and one of the areas where players are forced to make more compelling risk/reward decisions. That said, there should be only a few holes with serious slopes under the basket, it's downright annoying if half the holes are on giant side slopes.

Aren't most ball golf greens undulated? Sure, maybe the exact location where the hole is cut has to be a flat part, but there's ups and downs leading to it, no? So if you roll a putt past the hole, you could roll to a slope and the ball can run off down the hill further away than you started.

I mean, greens, whether ball or disc golf, that are flat as pool tables would be boring as hell.

 

[BrotherDave]

The only rollaways that really stick in my craw are the ones that roll into water near the basket. Potential lost disc + OB stroke is too punitive for my liking. An obstacle along the edge of water just high enough to stop low speed rollaways (like the sign boards they use) seems preferential.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Golf greens on good courses are definitely not flat. There is a crazy amount of earth moving to make greens have a variety of features.

 

[Jimb]

And those fairways on hills... don't get me started.




I can't link it right now but there's a disc golf fails video with a classic hillside rollaway at the expense of Mr. McBeth on a great drive in the middle of the faiway.. He just had to smile I was so bad.

I don't like rollaways, but figure that everyone is open to them and they can't always be avoided.

Again, talking McBeast. Round 2, MVP Open this year. I didn't like that his approach was punished by the artificial ob when the other guy's (name?)approach got saved by the wall behind the basket on a throw that would otherwise have blown way past the basket.

 

[Treeplant]

Golf greens on good courses are definitely not flat. There is a crazy amount of earth moving to make greens have a variety of features.

No, greens themselves are obviously not flat over the entire surface.

About two feet in either direction of where the hole is cut (give or take) is supposed to be relatively level, so that if you putt it extremely close you have a tap-in.

There are holes in disc golf where if you are millimetres away from making it with the perfect amount of speed you can roll out 70 feet, that doesn't really happen in ball golf.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Nah man, I've worked at golf courses and seen plenty of cups put in on a slope, especially for tournaments.

Also, occasionally a golf putt is a bit off target and loops the rim and shoots off for a tough second putt. Theme is the breaks sometimes.

I'm all for fair greens, but roll always are going to happen. If you go too far to minimize rollaway, before you know it all the baskets are on level 30' circular pads, and thats just boring. That said, a pin on top of a steep slope on all sides just because is no fun also, a good green should have a fair risk reward element. Rollaway are part of the risk sometimes.

 

[Steve West]

What the usga says:

Usga.org
Rule 16
Requirements for Hole Location on the Putting Green

Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:
…
An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
...

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Golf balls are spherical.
Discs are not. Flat is where it's at.

^ this.

Plus the fact in disc golf, how the ground slopes near the basket has absolutely no bearing on your ability to make the putt, or how it travels to the basket, unlike golf, where the slope directly affects the path of the ball en route to the hole.

In disc golf, the ground is only a factor after you miss.