Intentionally Limiting Supply, or just poor quality control?

[SirRaph]

So I guess Innova should invest in a climate-controlled, hermetically sealed clean room?

You'd probably be the first guy belly-aching about $30 per disc

"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."


"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

"They can't make quality discs because it would be too expensive."




If you want to think that making plastic discs both cheap and consistent is beyond the laws of physics and economics, please continue.
These things are ****ing simple to make.

 

[garublador]

"Quality discs aren't a matter of money invested, but rather a process that corrects the carelessness"

You aren't listening. We're saying that isn't true. If it's so easy to make super consistent discs at a fraction of what it costs current disc companies why not start your own disc production business? Your argument suggests that you'd be able to make a fortune. I haven't heard anything about you actually acting on it, though.

Of course there's room for improvement in their processes. That's true of any process. The part you're missing is that customers aren't willing to pay for better consistency so there's no reason for them to do it. If I'm remembering the Lean classes I took correctly, that's the golden rule of process improvement. Only do things that the customer is willing to pay for. The only process improvement that make sense are the ones that will improve efficiency and make the disc companies more money. Just saying that process improvement are possible isn't justification for implementing them.

There have been several mold and plastic variations plus run to run variations in both the Roc and Aviar yet they're probably two of the best selling disc golf molds ever. That right there is enough to show that what most people really care about is the approximate mold. They don't care if they're exactly the same each time, they care that they out perform other discs. Even with run to run variations many disc golfers find that the Teebird outperforms most other molds in that slot. That performance is what people are after. Making them, or any other disc, more consistent from run to run wouldn't change that. Why spend the time and money improving a process that doesn't make the Teebird any more worth buying than it already is?

 

[kinfolkfan]

I think watermelon could be a hand fruit it you have a big mouth.

 

[billnchristy]

I mean, when you cut it up its a hand fruit, but it isn't in full form....its more of a hands fruit then.

 

[billnchristy]

Dude are you saying QC doesn't cost money?

 

[garublador]

Dude are you saying QC doesn't cost money?

In the long term you'll make up the money invested only if customers are willing to pay for the improvements. If they aren't then you'll just spend the money to make the improvements but never get it back.

At this point it's really a marketing issue. They have to know what improvements customers will pay for. There's a really good chance they aren't willing to pay for inefficiencies, so getting rid of those is a good idea, but nothing has shown that customers are willing to pay enough to justify making the improvements necessary to increase run to run consistency. They'd have to do quite a bit of quality market research (which would probably mean hiring a marketing firm) to find out how much more consistency customers want and how much they'll pay for it. Then research how much it would cost to make the improvements required to meet the customer's needs (which might require more outside help, I doubt they have IE's on staff). Finally they'd have to do an ROI to see how long it will take to make up the cost of improvements and then either have or come up with the cash to make those improvements which may require investors.

There's a pretty good chance the parts they have to pay for just to see if it's worth while to do will cost more than they want to spend just to find out that it's not worth doing.

 

[discspeed]

It IS about marketing. For example, I know for a fact that MVP has really stepped up in the DG market QC-wise. This is two-fold. They buy more expensive plastic direct from plastic manufacturers, they spend more in terms of labor by double molding discs, and the brothers now HONESTLY take every Ion home and inspect the beads in person to make sure the early problems they had don't continue and that X-out discs don't make it out to retailers. They still make money, but the profits must be miniscule compared to the big boys.

Despite this OCD attention to quality and detail, there are still IDIOT DISC GOLFERS all over the country comparing them to dog toys, thinking they feel cheap, speculating that the pieces will separate...Every dolt thinks he's an expert, and most have bought hook line and sinker that "Innova is the standard for quality". So this proves that just making a better product and practicing better QC doesn't equal the masses noticing or caring. Innova's marketing (world champ signature discs that the world champs don't even actually throw) trumps quality.

If you believe in better QC, support companies like MVP and (to a lesser degree, but still better than the others) Lat64. Both these companies have put potential profits on the backburner to try and raise the standard for quality.

 

[garublador]

Despite this OCD attention to quality and detail, there are still IDIOT DISC GOLFERS all over the country comparing them to dog toys, thinking they feel cheap, speculating that the pieces will separate...Every dolt thinks he's an expert, and most have bought hook line and sinker that "Innova is the standard for quality". So this proves that just making a better product and practicing better QC doesn't equal the masses noticing or caring. Innova's marketing (world champ signature discs that the world champs don't even actually throw) trumps quality.

That's not unique to disc golf. Many consumer products have "boutique" brands that are either viewed as off brands or not even considered by those not willing to do the research.

 

[billnchristy]

In the long term you'll make up the money invested only if customers are willing to pay for the improvements. If they aren't then you'll just spend the money to make the improvements but never get it back.

At this point it's really a marketing issue. They have to know what improvements customers will pay for. There's a really good chance they aren't willing to pay for inefficiencies, so getting rid of those is a good idea, but nothing has shown that customers are willing to pay enough to justify making the improvements necessary to increase run to run consistency. They'd have to do quite a bit of quality market research (which would probably mean hiring a marketing firm) to find out how much more consistency customers want and how much they'll pay for it. Then research how much it would cost to make the improvements required to meet the customer's needs (which might require more outside help, I doubt they have IE's on staff). Finally they'd have to do an ROI to see how long it will take to make up the cost of improvements and then either have or come up with the cash to make those improvements which may require investors.

There's a pretty good chance the parts they have to pay for just to see if it's worth while to do will cost more than they want to spend just to find out that it's not worth doing.

I understand that quality will normally end up saving you money, but in this market where they can sell what should be ground up and remolded then QC will actually be a burden. Like someone said if you are already selling everything you can make then why improve?

We all know if they can wholesale at 4.50 a disc that they are still marking it up 100% or more so even selling misprints cheap is still profitable.

 

[Greevus]

I play guitar as well, and discs are similar in production issues---ie no two are alike. doesn't matter if it's the same mold/plastic, etc. so many variables. i think co's do indeed limit runs and do tricks to create demand, like Apple. however i think the prices and quality has remained pretty consistent across the board. i began playing during the CE craze from Innova. most people avoided them cause they were $15 each. today you can buy premium plastic from many makers at approx the same price. i always thought the "champ" plastic that replaced CE was just as durable, maybe even more so. the early complaints about CE were price, too slick, won't break in, etc. back then everyone was tossing DX and then the CE and Tie Dyed crazes began. i think the quality control is great overall with Innova and most of the vets, ie Discraft. there will always be bad throws and bad conditions. plastic runs vary too. just part of the game.

i think it's a 'sign of the times'. the younger generation is far more "digitalized" and everything is supposed to made 'perfectly' or you take it back. either works or it don't. not so long ago in a galaxy very near, we made many things work for us. if a disc had a characteristic that needed compensation, then we adjusted our throw.

 

[DavidSauls]

Not sure exactly how this fits in, but I remember when premium plastics appeared back in the DX-only days. They were (are) better quality---perhaps not as consistent from disc to disc in the same mold as we'd like, but the disc you bought was certainly more consistent between the first time you threw it and the hundredth.

It seemed this was pioneered by Millenium, which was part of Innova, but I could be wrong---that's just the first time I saw it. Durable Champion plastic appeared later.

Innova was able to charge twice as much, and gave up the lucrative market in replacement discs (in the DX days, you had to constantly replace drivers as they wore out).

I still don't know what it means to this discussion, except that Innova has, at times, upgraded their quality. I suspect they're at a point where they feel it's the best compromise of quality and price....and they probably know more about making discs than I do.

 

[Greevus]

I think Innova produces so many molds now versus the early days, that supply is necessarily smaller.
only so many mold machines that can run all the different runs. then you have certain discs that are molded in 4 or 5 different plastics. this adds up to less runs overall. what's funny is i still love DX for their ability to 'break in'. however, when i get a DX, i feel like i am cheating myself by not buying a premium plastic that will last far longer.

 

[skinner21]

as someone that is invovled in quality improvement every day, I can tell you that most quality improvements do not involve capital purchases. A large portion of it is procedureal improvements and limiting variables.

You guys are acting like improving the molding process is going to increase the cost of a disc 200-300%, and that's just not true.

 

[garublador]

You guys are acting like improving the molding process is going to increase the cost of a disc 200-300%, and that's just not true.

So exactly how much will it cost to improve consistency to the level the OP wants?

 

[Frank Delicious]

I understand that quality will normally end up saving you money, but in this market where they can sell what should be ground up and remolded then QC will actually be a burden. Like someone said if you are already selling everything you can make then why improve?

We all know if they can wholesale at 4.50 a disc that they are still marking it up 100% or more so even selling misprints cheap is still profitable.

I read Garu's post as saying the same thing you said.

 

[skinner21]

So exactly how much will it cost to improve consistency to the level the OP wants?

I have no idea. without seeing the Innova's processes and being more familiar with plastic injecting molding, I can't really answer that. I'm just saying that in general, alot of fixes do not cost a ton of money to implement.

 

[billnchristy]

If one factory has 5 high school graduates running the equipment and the other factory has a guy with a BS degree and 5 high school graduates running the equipment which one costs more to run?

If one factory can produce AND sell 1000 objects a day with moderate to poor quality and the other can only make 700 decent quality products a day which one will do better?

There is simply not enough DEMAND for quality to justify the decreased initial production and cost of a quality program.

 

[skinner21]

I 100% disagree with that. Even small companies can produse consisent products. Look, Innova does make a quality product. They just need to figure out why sometimes discs made on one run turn out flat and the next run their domey. They have to invest time, not just money. It could be in the setup of the machine, cooling processes, temperature of the plastic when it's injected, ANYTHING. You can hire an intern for the summer, either paid or unpaid, to do that kind of work.

I'm not saying I have all of the answers, and maybe they are doing these things, but there is WAY too much exagerating of costs flying around in here. But to me, being able to produce a product the same way twice should not be that big of a deal.

 

[discspeed]

I 100% disagree with that. Even small companies can produse consisent products. Look, Innova does make a quality product. They just need to figure out why sometimes discs made on one run turn out flat and the next run their domey. They have to invest time, not just money. It could be in the setup of the machine, cooling processes, temperature of the plastic when it's injected, ANYTHING. You can hire an intern for the summer, either paid or unpaid, to do that kind of work.

Innova already knows all the answers to these questions, they just choose not to implement solutions because there is no demand for a better product, and the simplest solutions do cost money. I admit there is some room for creative problems solving, but I agree with the others here in that there is not enough motivation for them to do so.

 

[garublador]

there is WAY too much exagerating of costs flying around in here.

That may be true but they're no worse than the exaggerations about how easy and cheap it would be to fix the industry wide consistency issues even though the actual demand for those fixes is unknown.