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Julio review of Highbridge?
- Thread starter optidiscic
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
Not to knock this site at all since it is amazing at what it does, but this is NOT one of the things this site does well.
The reason I say that is that this site does nothing to separate out who the courses are great for. What is does is mix and average everyone's opinions into one big pot of gumbo.
If anything, the profile of reviewers would tend towards recreational players with only a couple years of playing under their belts, limited comptetivie play, a small number of courses played, and a small geographical area played.
Therefore this site highlights what the general DG public wants to see in the recreational GAME of disc golf, not the competitive SPORT of disc golf.
[This should probably be a PM because it's a sidebar to the julio review of Highbridge discussion, but I'm gonna post anyway to share some background]
Paul, yeah I'm starting to accept the inevitable that Winter Park will continue to be subject to falling due to what we cannot control and seem to not be able to remedy. I'll enjoy my short time in the sun, as I continue to make Winter Park better and better each chance I get, so that all the true addicts like me can come out and have a blast – FOR FREE!!!!
We know the concrete tees are what do, and will continue to, set back the course and keep players from getting "the feel" of a true disc golf venue. Unfortunately the county will not allow it (been saying no for years), and even if they did, we don't know how we'd even accomplish it. Given that, I think it is best we focus on making the stone tees better, that's all we have to work with. But that too is difficult because of our situation. The course is 100% volunteer, I mean this plainly and bluntly. It's like the county allowed me to build a course and run it on their property. I designed it all independently, annually the county allocates $0 funding to the course, my club raises all sponsorships and collects and is responsible for all donations (we even bought and installed the donation tube!), and we use all our own equipment (no county labor or equipment is involved in construction or general upkeep). So weekly during the season we use our own lawnmower and weedwackers to cut grass. We use our own approved chemicals and sprayers to control poison ivy and undergrowth at what is a county property. And during construction of the holes or any major improvement efforts, we use my chainsaws, handtools, shovels, and my ATV and cart. In fact, the 18 hole course was created using all manual labor. At that time I had no ATV and no chainsaw. All wooded holes were created by hand with bowsaws, we dug all holes for the pins by hand, and we carried concrete, crushed stone (for the original 11 holes), and baskets up the hill and into the woods by hand whenever it was too wet or too wooded for my truck. All the crushed stone pads for the 18 and 27 hole expansions were laid by dragging it out into the woods and hill with my atv and cart. It can be trecherous out there when wet (try an ATV pulling a cart full of 500# of crushed stone back in those woods when they are wet and especially in the creek valley elevation area). In those locations were we could not maneuver the ATV (holes 13, 14, G, H, I, and 15) we had to carry all that crushed stone by hand using 5 gallon buckets. Tees aside because unless I buy my own 4WD skidsteer and possibly risk my life, concrete will never be an option. I admit that we do need to fix a half dozen or so of the slanted and rutted crushed stone tees, though we typically wait for just prior to snowfall so that the ice and snow will pack it down harder over winter. (That's an invite - the weekend after thanksgiving we have a work day and a final round of the season, and we'll feed and 'water' anyone who comes out to enjoy the possible cold (the pond was frozen last year, that was FUN!))
I'm just telling you this so you get have some insider knowledge and appreciation of how and what we've done to build the course that you had the pleasure to play.
Ive asked tomjulio, what is this perspective of a 4.5 or 5 disc course in your mind (in any reviewer's mind (I post it in my profile)). I've played all across the country (even legendary Gran Canyon (extinct) in Florida). Most of my wishlist is in MI right now. I hear and see that they will be the type of wooded wonderland courses that I love!
Is it lack of more true par 4 or 5 holes at Winter Park? That was always missing in the original design concept. The 700' #15 was intended to be this way, but it has turned out easier than thought for advanced players. We've been including it in re-designed holes. Hole #3 we redesigned into that long wooded monster and it really is a par 4 with the tree riddled fairway and risky green. Hole H was shaping up to be a 4, but we reduced the length and brought the basket back to the risky green slope that Tom mentioned slipping on. We have the ability to redesign any hole out there and have a few alternate pins already installed or in mind that will create some true par 4s and 5s with the need to place accurate landing zone shots, and turn 90 degrees to finish the remaining fairway.
One major consideration that takes away from players getting 'the feel', is that we have to make everything semi-temporary because we have to remove things in winter for skiing. If the county would finally give up on a lackluster ski hill, or make enough snow, then we could landscape tees with box type strutures that would level them out, put nicer permanent tee posts up nearer the tees, and install nicer amenities like benches and whatnot. We suffer from not being considered the major user group of the park (which we really are). All the county preference mainly goes to the ski hill, and we the disc golfers have to make concessions.
We also are held back from the immaculate amenities like Highbridge, Sandy Point, Blue Ribbon, Justin Trails, Vallarta-Ast, etc all have. They are dedicated properties to disc golf and are also private or pay to play. We share the park with the other users and we are a free park. We have to limit some features, designs, and amenities because of the other activities (especially mountain biking trails all over the park). We have no budget or ability to provide many things that private courses can do more easily. We rely entirely on donations, and make the best out of them. Without a doubt our prime focus of fundraising and spending has been to get more baskets it place. It has definitely paid off too, but at the same time limited our ability to spend on things like landscaping and all those beautification items.
Besides those, I can't think of what else is missing from 'the perspective'. The use we got out of every single feature of the land has yielded an amazing balance and variety of holes. We can still do more, and are always looking to be bigger and better than any other WI course (becuase the property easily allows us to be), and want to be on par with the best in the nation.
Yeah, I like to talk about disc golf and like to explain my course and listen and discuss feedback 
Plus I'm in a meeting at work and BORED!!!
Plus I'm in a meeting at work and BORED!!!
Dave242,
I agree; though I think, especially once a good number of reviews have been written for a course, that this site generally represents good courses vs. bad ones. It also allows perfect opportunity for planning road trips; which is what I enjoy greatly. I am a bit old now for tourney play. I did play a fair amount in my day; unfortunately, I was one who got age pushed when they changed the age divisions a number of years ago; and have been an in between player since. I organized and played in a four team tourney this past weekend; representing three states and four areas. I was forced to seed myself quite low in the overall group; and so, I perfectly understand that my skill level is not up there with the pros any longer.
Most players represented on this site seem to be fairly new players. That's o.k., they are the ones who seem to have the time to spend here and the energy to play lots of rounds at lots of courses. In that sense, I am jealous to a certain degree. In my day, you had to travel many hours to play 20 courses. Today, you can play that many in your local area. When I was living in the northeast for a while; there were literally NO COURSES AT ALL.
Pros do not seem to be represented here very well. They are busy playing and surviving. They will come more and more as time goes by. At some point, there will be a rating system based on player's skill level; i.e. their rated rounds. This will add another level to access regarding the ratings system.
In general, pro players contribute little to courses. I understand that this will be a controversial statement and I will say that it is entirely my own opinion; and that this is changing; i.e. Timmy Gill, Chuck Kennedy, Brian Cummings, Chris Sprague, and I'm sure many more; are now contributing their expertise to course design. For most of this sport's life; it has been a grass roots operation; and many little known persons on the pro tour made this sport grow. I have appreciated their efforts for many years and have thought many pros to be less than generous in regards to their time and efforts at these grass roots levels.
I still play with many of them (albeit on the losing end!), and quite a number are friends of mine. However, they have other interests than giving to course design on the working man's end of things. I am glad to see this changing and look forward to their contributions in the future; both in course design and the possibility of adding another category to this site in terms of evaluation. That day will come soon. Word of mouth between the pros lets them know where the good courses are. But, a few will want to add their two cents here eventually.
I agree; though I think, especially once a good number of reviews have been written for a course, that this site generally represents good courses vs. bad ones. It also allows perfect opportunity for planning road trips; which is what I enjoy greatly. I am a bit old now for tourney play. I did play a fair amount in my day; unfortunately, I was one who got age pushed when they changed the age divisions a number of years ago; and have been an in between player since. I organized and played in a four team tourney this past weekend; representing three states and four areas. I was forced to seed myself quite low in the overall group; and so, I perfectly understand that my skill level is not up there with the pros any longer.
Most players represented on this site seem to be fairly new players. That's o.k., they are the ones who seem to have the time to spend here and the energy to play lots of rounds at lots of courses. In that sense, I am jealous to a certain degree. In my day, you had to travel many hours to play 20 courses. Today, you can play that many in your local area. When I was living in the northeast for a while; there were literally NO COURSES AT ALL.
Pros do not seem to be represented here very well. They are busy playing and surviving. They will come more and more as time goes by. At some point, there will be a rating system based on player's skill level; i.e. their rated rounds. This will add another level to access regarding the ratings system.
In general, pro players contribute little to courses. I understand that this will be a controversial statement and I will say that it is entirely my own opinion; and that this is changing; i.e. Timmy Gill, Chuck Kennedy, Brian Cummings, Chris Sprague, and I'm sure many more; are now contributing their expertise to course design. For most of this sport's life; it has been a grass roots operation; and many little known persons on the pro tour made this sport grow. I have appreciated their efforts for many years and have thought many pros to be less than generous in regards to their time and efforts at these grass roots levels.
I still play with many of them (albeit on the losing end!), and quite a number are friends of mine. However, they have other interests than giving to course design on the working man's end of things. I am glad to see this changing and look forward to their contributions in the future; both in course design and the possibility of adding another category to this site in terms of evaluation. That day will come soon. Word of mouth between the pros lets them know where the good courses are. But, a few will want to add their two cents here eventually.
skinner21
* Ace Member *
these are the longest posts I have ever seen.
Talk about a threadjack! Does anyone know if Julio has actually played Blueberry yet......anticipation!
Jmo: pros don't need a site like this because they know of great courses by word of mouth. They are in the loop. I greatly appreciate pros like Julio and biscoe and old schoolers like three putt ( sorry to those I forgot) because at a beginner intermadiate level it's sooo hard to come across the answers I'm looking for. I agree that many reviewers lack expierence to post reviews I agree with but I also feel many are too harsh on courses due to expierence of better courses. I feel dirt pads are normal (2/5) and navigation usually isn't a problem with a map, some wondering around, or playing more than once. I always prefer more courses over less and generally look for the positive. I would hate to over look acourse because someone thought it was too tough.I also look at how that course rounds out the surrounding courses- I mean in complex dgcs you prob have a fav, but you wouldn't want all four courses to be the same. Also I played over twenty before I even had the Internet.
next couple weeks. Working our way up north during this great fall weather!...the other course that is getting TONS of buzzz (blatant Discraft plug) in the area is Sandy Point
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=748
...as for the other posts. gimme time to read em. like six months or so (holy huge posts Batman!)
Timg needs to wipe out that blatantly mistaken rating of 2-discs for the one review of Sandy Point. Sandy Point will be creeping up along with Justin Trails Big Brother. But those again are pay to play. Winter park is and always will be free (so then at Winter don't expect as many amentities though, and the property is not dedicated solely to disc golf, but it does offer complete variety unmatched elsewhere).
I love how suddenly Wisconsin is in the house.....awesome! Now if somebody in Iowa would just crash the party!
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Cydisc, a designer from Iowa posts on here.
Funny you should mention that. The word on the street is that the pro ladies from the Women's Nationals that were held in the Quad Cities/Iowa region a few weeks ago LOVED that area! ...I was like "really", and the answer was like "uh, yeah! great courses!"
I like saying, like you know, like a lot too.
You mean courses in Iowa? I'm not aware of any that I would consider 5.0, but there are a *lot* of 4.0+.
Wildcat Bluff - a MUST visit for travelling players to the Cedar Rapids, IA area.
West Lake Park, Davenport, IA....awesome 24 hole course. Camden 2, the other side, Milan, Illinois (just across border)....awesome 18 hole course. Middle Park DGC, Bettendorf IA, good 18 hole course.....Devil's Glen, Bettendorf, IA...very good 12 hole course, and Butterworth Park DGC, East Moline, Illinois....very good nine. Eastern Avenue Park, Davenport, IA; 18 holes of rip and chuck is probably the most played of all of these and Longview Park's 18, Rock Island, Illinois is another good one and probably their oldest. QUAD CITIES a great place for disc.
you don't know tom.
that four he dished out to winter park was a warm up run for your poor unsuspecting Blueberry Hill. Blueberry won't measure up because it isn't flip city. No matter where he gets to vote. You blueberrys had better take a page from the flippys and start using peoples computers to open up new accounts under temp names. these accounts can be identified also because the person just logged in that 1 day and never returned. Just happened to join up that day and give idlewild a 4 or 4 1/2. that last highberry review that originally brought it down to flips and idlewilds level is a perfect example of what I am talking about. and twentiesMr.cleans vote of four from idlewild just happened to appear right after idlewild gained on flippy. thing is I don't care just hate to see sneaky humans doing sneaky things and not being detected. look out Blueberry one of your local residents is comin. and he's on a Jihad.Craziness! No one is freaking out.
Tom just dropped Winter Park from 6 to 9 with his review of 4 out of 5 partially due to poor muddy conditions when he played, but it is what it is, there will be no freaking out. Having less reviews makes you more volatile.
I just wanna play great courses because the past 5 years or so has really seen a push for disc golf into the mainstream, into the suburban backyard parks for the non-addicted players. While there have been more than a few designers out there bending the heck out of the envelope of course design with some fantastic and amazing courses, they unfortunately are outweighed 10:1 or so by all these little pitch and putt 9-holers or poorly designed courses on poor pieces of property. (that's a sidebar - I will never review a course higher because "the designer did the best they could with what was available". That's BS, if the course is in the wind, it BLOWS! I don't want more courses that blow, I want a few that are amazing!)
He'll give it a 5 - seriously there is no reason not too. You have to play to believe, once he plays, he'll believe.
Who is this tomjulio character everyone is caught up on????
He's only played 39 courses and been playing 1.3 years according to his profile!!!!!
that four he dished out to winter park was a warm up run for your poor unsuspecting Blueberry Hill. Blueberry won't measure up because it isn't flip city. No matter where he gets to vote. You blueberrys had better take a page from the flippys and start using peoples computers to open up new accounts under temp names. these accounts can be identified also because the person just logged in that 1 day and never returned. Just happened to join up that day and give idlewild a 4 or 4 1/2. that last highberry review that originally brought it down to flips and idlewilds level is a perfect example of what I am talking about. and twentiesMr.cleans vote of four from idlewild just happened to appear right after idlewild gained on flippy. thing is I don't care just hate to see sneaky humans doing sneaky things and not being detected. look out Blueberry one of your local residents is comin. and he's on a Jihad.
ah, I see the President of the Universal Disc Golfing Tin Foil Hat Club has joined in the discussion. What? Your cable go out and you can't watch Fox News tonight?
That trumps any reply I could've come up with...I was just reading that like, "Huh?!"
I think someone's on the highberries.
tom always says that. always
No tom just flippies knocking down rival top ten course scores. nothing paranormal about sneaky humans doing sneaky things tom. And I don't watch fox news. you need to come up with a new one tom that ones getting really old n lame. personal attacks are childish tom. just warning them about you. that's all.
