Reach back era is over, long live the whip.

[deyo7]

If you swing a golf club downward or a baseball bat forward, do you feel like you're holding the head of the club back? To me it feels like I'm pulling the handle forward and momentum is holding the club back. Then as my shoulders open or I approach the ball, the angles work out to start the club head swinging outward and that's because my wrists start to break forward toward neutral. That's through ball contact and then they continue to release the rest of the way in the follow through.

It's a similar thing with a disc, the momentum/weight holds my wrist in a good angle and because my shoulders don't feel like they open until the disc is in a forward position, my wrist doesn't want to break open until then.

Yeah, when you explain it like it totally makes more sense. And going through motion it doesn't feel much different. Where I feel the active wrist is just at the very end, right before release. I could be somewhat confusing the feel of gripping tightly with active wrist. AND I'm probably hugging myself as I'm trying to learn how to switch to Feldberg style pendulum.

Think handle first, should help things out. In this case, disc is the handle.

Lead edge of of disc as handle you mean?

If you are hugging yourself, the wrist wants to fly open. If you are hugging the disc with wide upper arm and/or elbow bent leading forward, the wrist will lag back closed until you stop/slow extending your elbow and/or hip rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=2m10s

Do you stiffen the upper arm to keep it wide? I've been trying to focus on a loose and free form, trying to pendulum like Feldberg but my upper arm angle has likely gotten sloppy

 

[sidewinder22]

Do you stiffen the upper arm to keep it wide? I've been trying to focus on a loose and free form, trying to pendulum like Feldberg but my upper arm angle has likely gotten sloppy

No, it's loose and fluid like in Reciprocating Dingle Arm, until the hit. Swing shoulder forward or slightly left inline with closed stance, not around to right across stance. Lower body needs to stop or slow down rotation to release wide.

 

[deyo7]

No, it's loose and fluid like in Reciprocating Dingle Arm, until the hit. Swing shoulder forward or slightly left inline with closed stance, not around to right across stance. Lower body needs to stop or slow down rotation to release wide.

Ok, perfect. Things were going really well but I somehow lost the loving feeling of the windmill and pendulum last two rounds- I was thinking this morning the same thing that my forward swing was going more across my body again from old ingrained habit, instead of more forward/left; so good deal.

 

[RFrance]

SW just posted this new SC video over on another thread (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbcIv4SqP0#t=11m15s) but it reminded me that when I get the "snap feeling" it's because I've used the parametric acceleration at the correct time.

 

[Casey 1988]

If you are hugging yourself, the wrist wants to fly open. If you are hugging the disc with wide upper arm and/or elbow bent leading forward, the wrist will lag back closed until you stop/slow extending your elbow and/or hip rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=2m10s

Odd thing is I am second guy but I am not doing the one leg part, too much on one leg to do the one leg spin, If I did what the first guy is doing I would have knee pain by the end of a 18 hole round. Also I am not able to do the after disc is tossed arm keep extending or I have shoulder pain on a shoulder that the joint locks up at times, no pain then. Also grip is then an issue if I keep going, the fingers do catch on the disc and drag it off line, I have oddly wide second knuckle joints that hook on the disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Dude has some decent disc golf form throwing the chain back, x-steps, keeps the chain relatively still as he moves forward into the plant.

 

[jenb]

Shouldn't it be "... long live the reach around?"

 

[JewBoy]

How odd 10 years ago when I said I lost power with the x step I was called crazy

 

[drk_evns]

How odd 10 years ago when I said I lost power with the x step I was called crazy

I won't call you crazy, but I will tell you it's not the x-step's fault. Post a video of yourself in the form analysis section. There are a lot of stages to get through before your x-step adds any power.

I was throwing 400+ before I had form that allowed my x-step to add any momentum.

 

[tampora]

Fwiw..the speed reference to how fast the disc accelerates at the point of the whip is....huge. For lack of a better way to describe it... a disc moving YMS (your max speed) the entire time from start to finish will not go as far as a disc that starts out at zero and accelerates to YMS at the time of the release. Now if you delay that acceleration to YMS right until the whip happens, and at this point you are around 60-80% YMS, and then EXPLODE to YMS at the whip, your disc will go ever further...much further.

From the disc's perspective, it is irrelevant what happened before moment it began moving purely on its own momentum. Ideally, YMS will increase when using a whip-like motion (albeit for a much shorter timespan and hopefully at the moment of release), but the fact that the disc was accelerating up until the moment it was released instead of a constant speed is irrelevant.

Consider this analogy: Two bicyclists are racing using the rule that they cannot pedal once the race has began. Both bicyclists cross the starting line at the same instant in a rolling start with speed 40mph. Previous to crossing the starting line, one bicyclist was traveling a constant 40mph, while the other waited to accelerate to 40mph until the last moment before the starting line.

Would you assume the person who waited until the last moment to accelerate to have some advantage? I wouldn't.

 

[sidewinder22]

From the disc's perspective, it is irrelevant what happened before moment it began moving purely on its own momentum. Ideally, YMS will increase when using a whip-like motion (albeit for a much shorter timespan and hopefully at the moment of release), but the fact that the disc was accelerating up until the moment it was released instead of a constant speed is irrelevant.

Consider this analogy: Two bicyclists are racing using the rule that they cannot pedal once the race has began. Both bicyclists cross the starting line at the same instant in a rolling start with speed 40mph. Previous to crossing the starting line, one bicyclist was traveling a constant 40mph, while the other waited to accelerate to 40mph until the last moment before the starting line.

Would you assume the person who waited until the last moment to accelerate to have some advantage? I wouldn't.

Imagine how much harder you have to work to reach that speed in much shorter time/distance.

 

[DiscFifty]

Imagine how much harder you have to work to reach that speed in much shorter time/distance.

I think whoever expends the accumulated energy in the least amount of time will have worked the least.

Ideally, YMS will increase when using a whip-like motion (albeit for a much shorter timespan and hopefully at the moment of release), but the fact that the disc was accelerating up until the moment it was released instead of a constant speed is irrelevant.

If we were robots I would agree, but otherwise energy does effect efficiency and if you save that energy as long as possible before executing something, especially in the twitch muscle category I would think it would perform better. Hence starting slow, exploding during the whip.

 

[drk_evns]

"YMS" only happens for a split second. If you attempt to go YMS from the peak fo the backswing, you're NOT going to be going YMS at the hit. If you were able to maintain YMS the entire time it wouldn't matter, but we're human and we don't work that way.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think whoever expends the accumulated energy in the least amount of time will have worked the least.



If we were robots I would agree, but otherwise energy does effect efficiency and if you save that energy as long as possible before executing something, especially in the twitch muscle category I would think it would perform better. Hence starting slow, exploding during the whip.

If you accelerate fast/hard at the last second, your muscles have to work much harder/be more explosive and the pressure on your grip is insane from the disc's inertia lagging, compared to smoothly accelerating the disc throughout a longer swing, like James Conrad who doesn't have that fast muscle twitch to explode at the last second like Seppo.

 

[drk_evns]

If you accelerate fast/hard at the last second, your muscles have to work much harder/be more explosive and the pressure on your grip is insane from the disc's inertia lagging, compared to smoothly accelerating the disc throughout a longer swing, like James Conrad who doesn't have that fast muscle twitch to explode at the last second like Seppo.

I think he's talking max speed from reach back to hit, which isn't really possible.

A smooth acceleration is definitely the right answer.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

More redirection creates more acceleration. You won't find any video of people starting a whip from a static coil. You can't manufacture a static coil nearly as well a dynamic coil. When you snap someone with a towel you hold the back end straight to whip it harder.

Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.

I don't think I understand what your interpretations are, of what SW has said in this thread.

 

[UhhNegative]

Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.

No, it's exactly a 'dynamic coil'. Towel goes from straight, to coiled, to straight momentarily, back to coiled in the other direction.

A "static coil" would be having the towel already curled and then quickly pulling one end.

The rest of what you wrote doesn't make sense. Of course throwing a disc isn't exactly like whipping a towel, its the idea of redirection that is important.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your towel statement contradicts your previous statements. Holding the back end of a towel straight to whip it harder is the antithesis of a 'dynamic coil'. Also, I think you're on the wrong track with promoting motion outside the plane of the drive as being beneficial to the whip of a disc drive. The snapping of a bull whip can be taken too far as an analogy because the end goal is sudden acceleration of the tip but not on a specific line that benefits the launching of a projectile as with a disc drive.

No analogy is perfect, but they help convey concepts to the uninitiated. The towel is not coiled when pulled taut straight. The towel is actually stretched out rather than coiled. The straight towel goes into a dynamic coil. A bull whip can be incredibly accurate.

The human body doesn't create or transfer power efficiently in a perfect plane, especially when you are moving around dynamically in a throw. It's like how gym machines are bad for the joints compared to free weights.

The path of the disc from pull back to release does not need to be in a straight line. The path that the disc takes from the end of the reach back to the point of separation does not affect the line of flight except at the point the flight begins. This means that it doesn't matter what arc or path the disc takes before the hit (snap). The path the disc takes after launch is determined at the hit, not before.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml

Note how how he says you tell when I'm not going use the whip when it's coiled up. And how accurate the whip is:

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got that improved my drive was from one of Shusterick's videos he made eons ago where he advised not just reaching back, but making sure your non-throwing shoulder mirrors the reach back shoulder by moving fully toward the basket. When he pointed this out I had an 'aha' moment where I connected the reach back more with the winding of a spring and less with lengthening the runway to build up more speed for the snap (which has often been expressed as the purpose of a full reach back). This ties in with Dunipace's video in that I think the important takeaway isn't 'you don't need to reach back fully', but more 'you need to wind up your springs better'.