Rocs and Aviars for testing form

[fasteddy8170]

I've read a couple different posts on here about how experienced players recommend newbies to throw Rocs and putters to test their form because these discs will show flaws in technique. What does this mean? If I have bad technique, what will these discs do? (Outside of the obvious wormburners and moonshots, of course) And what should these discs do if I have good form?

I'm asking because I want to try it but I want to know what I'm looking for before I start. I think my form on the course with these particular discs is pretty good because my mid-range and putting is pretty good. But, what is the difference if I'm going out to a field to practice with them for the expressed purpose of getting better with distance drivers like Tbirds, Valkyries, Beasts, etc.? I mean, I can throw a KC Pro Roc 250 feet in a straight line, and I can hyzer and anhyzer it pretty consistently in on-course situations. I think that means my form is good. But, I have to be honest: my technique with drivers is still not good. Admittedly, I have issues that mainly center on strongarming, o.a.t., and hip/shoulder synching that others have seen in my posted videos. So, how can throwing mid-range discs well truly translate into throwing faster discs better? Still, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Just wondering

 

[DGShawn]

I have the same questions..thanks for posting


opcorn:


Shawn

 

[Rocaholic74]

I'm no expert but here it goes:

If you can get yourself throwing a putter 300+ feet and a Roc or other mid 325+ your form is on the way to becoming correct in that it takes proper form and snap to get a putter out to 300+ feet on a correct golf line...for Rocs....they are very nose sensitive....you need to get the nose down but put some decent snap on those things to get them out to 325+...and even more to get them out to 350+.

Putters (Wizards/Ions/Aviars) are not very tolerant of OAT and if you do happen to OAT putters you will certainly see it in the way it flies...either a strong pull to the right or a nose bomb straight into the ground about 100 -150 feet out....

Rocs do not tolerate OAT either....they will crash and burn if you throw them incorrectly...when you throw Rocs for a while you will instantly know when you are throwing poorly or well based on the flight of the disc...I have a newish Ontario Roc...it's flight path is straight to a gradual right bend and back to the left very slightly....when I put OAT on it the disc goes straight and then hard to the right and hits the ground like an anny....For Ranchos....if you have a good one beat in a bit...the disc should start straight but work itself right just a bit and end just slightly back left (like the Ontario) but less of a right movement (once well seasoned there is no better disc)...KC Pro's will just be dead straight bombs with a hard fade left at the end..once beat in they will be that super straight laser disc that everyone craves but takes so long to get there...

 

[77586]

What is o.a.t?

 

[garublador]

What slower, neutral discs like that show is whether or not you have a lot of off-axis torque (OAT) in your throw. If you do they'll just flip and you'll get cut rollers. If you're throwing your Roc 250' in a straight line using a full power throw then OAT probably isn't a big issue. Keep working with them, though.

What they don't do a great job of showing is whether or not you're throwing nose down. Fairway drivers are a lot better at that because they don't mask OAT like faster drivers do, are easy to control and don't require as much nose down as the faster drivers.

 

[boatman]

comet worked for me!

 

[earth2sean]

I thought a strong pull to the right for a RHBH thrower with, say, an aviar, could mean that the person is throwing the disc too hard because it has low resistance to high-speed turn. Am I wrong?

 

[whiz]

Unless one is throwing a new aviar over 300' if it is turning strongly to the right it is due to off-axis-torque.

 

[gizmo]

i had some of the same ?'s thanx guys

 

[earth2sean]

Unless one is throwing a new aviar over 300' if it is turning strongly to the right it is due to off-axis-torque.

i apologize, i'm very much a newb so i'm still trying to understand some of the terminology involved. i have a pretty good grasp of oat i think, but the overstable/understable thing is still kind of confusing to me. over on disc golf review, they define an understable disc as being one that has "relatively low resistance to high speed turn and less low speed fade," and defines high speed turn as "The characteristic of a disc to curve to the right at the beginning of its flight when thrown hard."

i thought the aviar was an understable disc, but maybe i have that wrong too. when i throw it with about 70-75% power, it flies perfectly straight. when i add a little more to it, it will start out perfectly flat, but within maybe 20 to 30 feet start to pull hard right. the couple of instances i did this weren't out in the open, so it didn't get more than 60 to 75 feet maybe before it hit a tree. if this is not high speed turn and more of an example of introducing oat as i power up, then that makes sense right?

sorry, i don't really know any experienced or knowledgeable disc golfers in real life so i'm still kind of figuring all of this stuff out.

 

[Mike C]

I thought a strong pull to the right for a RHBH thrower with, say, an aviar, could mean that the person is throwing the disc too hard because it has low resistance to high-speed turn. Am I wrong?

Incorrect. A stable disc will fly straight no matter how hard you throw it if your form is clean.

i thought the aviar was an understable disc, but maybe i have that wrong too. when i throw it with about 70-75% power, it flies perfectly straight. when i add a little more to it, it will start out perfectly flat, but within maybe 20 to 30 feet start to pull hard right. the couple of instances i did this weren't out in the open, so it didn't get more than 60 to 75 feet maybe before it hit a tree. if this is not high speed turn and more of an example of introducing oat as i power up, then that makes sense right?

sorry, i don't really know any experienced or knowledgeable disc golfers in real life so i'm still kind of figuring all of this stuff out.

Aviars are stable discs. What you saw is OAT. If you practice with putters and get to the point where you can throw it as hard as you want while keeping it straight it will do a lot of good things for you. Aviars should only turn if they're pretty beat up, new ones are good at holding a straight line even on a drive.

 

[chickenonabun]

I think a way to tell if its oat or not is:

If the disc either instantly comes out anhyzer or turn sharp anhyzer early on in the flight, you probably have OAT. If a disc goes straight for most of its flight then starts turning, then it was probably a clean throw, and the disc will do a smoother turn rather than just crashing into a roller.

Also, slower speed discs (especially putters) will wobble very noticeably if you throw with OAT, while a high speed driver won't wobble or turnover, therefore masking your OAT.

 

[jenb]

There is a big difference between a BB aviar and an a P&A or Classic Aviar. And a beat classic aviar is truly understable rather quickly.

In any case, you should be able to throw a hyzer skip with any of these discs, regardless of how understable or beat they are. That's the exercise to assess clean form.

 

[craftsman]

If you cant throw a comet over 275, you likely have oat.
If you can throw a comet over 275, but still buring to the right, focus your awareness on speedvs snap, nose angle, and height.

 

[Triflusal]

I think a way to tell if its oat or not is:

If the disc either instantly comes out anhyzer or turn sharp anhyzer early on in the flight, you probably have OAT. If a disc goes straight for most of its flight then starts turning, then it was probably a clean throw, and the disc will do a smoother turn rather than just crashing into a roller.

Also, slower speed discs (especially putters) will wobble very noticeably if you throw with OAT, while a high speed driver won't wobble or turnover, therefore masking your OAT.

naw this isn't quite right either. a roll curve introduces OAT in to the throw, but the disc doesnt start breaking immediately. OAT can effect many different parts of the flight path, that is why it is so useful for line shaping.

slower discs will also wobble if you get dirty releases, whereas with high speed drivers its less noticeable.

 

[Tyler_McGinnis]

Something I've been wondering, when people refer to Aviar distance/throwing Aviars without turning, is it in reference to beaded Aviars (KC's, JK's, etc.) or DX Aviar P&A's?

 

[craftsman]

I usually assume beaded, but even with a small bead avair, magnet, or other equalivents, one should be able to get them out on clean lines at simillar distances.

Throwing slower discs to guage form is just really about the slower, more neutral discs giving you better feedback from small form tweaks due to it being easier to see the flaws and how the corrections effect the flight.

Throwing a slow mold usually shows players the importance of snap vs speed, the height needed for discs to travel far, and the benifits of a hyzer release.
Its common for players to only throw low and flat before dd'n.

 

[chickenonabun]

naw this isn't quite right either. a roll curve introduces OAT in to the throw, but the disc doesnt start breaking immediately. OAT can effect many different parts of the flight path, that is why it is so useful for line shaping.

slower discs will also wobble if you get dirty releases, whereas with high speed drivers its less noticeable.

Can you explain a roll curve? I know its something about a late turn, but how exactly does it work and what kind of OAT is applied? A lot of the shots I throw seem to do this.

 

[Rocaholic74]

If I was you I wouldn't bother asking about this right now....it's just one more thing that can get in your head when throwing....don't worry about the little nuances you can do when throwing....just practice on throwing your putter and your midranges flat and in a straight line...find yourself a wide open hole and pace off 300 ft.....just take your putters and midranges and fire away...once you can reach that basket with a putter and easily with a midrange...move out further..say 15 to 20 feet...start the process all over again..

 

[earth2sean]

Ok, so I feel like I might have had a breakthrough today. I was finally able to get a lot of drives straight and without OAT. Driving a 170g DX Roc from a stand-still, I was able to get my drives from 250'-270' (estimated based on hole length) with consistency, nice and straight. This is good distance, right? I've read people assert that someone should be able to drive 300' with a Roc, but I assume that's using some sort of glide step or x-step. I'm hoping to build more consistency and accuracy before I add something like that. Is my distance pretty good for my disc and throwing from a stand-still?