[Question] The DGCR mold: lid geometries discussion

[Marmoset]

Now that we've voted on the lid-style disc we need to discuss what features we want it to have. I don't see how this part can be a poll yet. It might turn into a poll later.

Below are some topics that need to be discussed so that the CAD artist can begin drawing the profile. I'll volunteer to be the CAD artist unless DGCR wants someone else to do it.

PDGA LEGAL: do we want it to be legal? if not, there are fewer design restrictions.

GLIDE: low, medium or high glide?

NEUTRALITY: unerstable, neutral, stable, or overstable? I see neutral and stable as two different descriptions. Neutral can easily shape flights but is more speed stable. Stable can also shape different flights based on release angle and is more high speed stable/ less speed sensitive.

DIAMETER: Polecats are small diameter @ 21.3cm and Zephyrs are large diameter at 24.1cm. How big do we want ours to be?

RIM DEPTH: most lids are fairly deep @ roughly 1.6cm (deeper than an Aviar's 1.5cm). Do we want a deep rim or a shallow rim like the Ringer's 1.2cm? Or in between?

SHOULDER: round like a Rattler/Putt'r/Upshot or squared off like a Polecat? Which brings us to the next category...

THUMTRAC: Some people love them, some people hate them. Should we include? There are several variants on the market now. Rhynos/Birdies/Wolves have a Thumtrac. Zephyrs and Bergs have a weird lippy thing. RDG has the mini-groove. Discraft has the Groove Top. Ching has the Juju/Velocity divots.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: yay or nay? These are the concentric circles on the tops of UltraStars, Sonics, Fastbacks, etc.

RAISED CENTER: As seen on the Sonic/ Fastback/ Superhero type discs. Good idea or bad?

DOME: Do we want it domey or flat?

OVERMOLD: Should we attempt this or should we go the traditional route?

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: large radius or small? Worded differently, really blunt and rounded or more sharp?

BEVELED EDGE: should we include a bevel? UltraStars have a very slight bevel, Polecats do not.

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: large radius or small? some like to have the pads of their fingers on a rounded transition to the bottom of the flight plate, some like a much sharper transition.

PLUS RIM: Do you love or do you hate plus rims?

WEIGHTS: Are light weights important to you? If you answered yes, what do you consider light?




please feel free to add to the list if you think I left anything off.

 

[Marmoset]

Marm O. Votes:

PDGA LEGAL: absolutely YES.

GLIDE: medium to high

NEUTRALITY: neutral… I'm fine with having an upper boundary after which we go understable.

DIAMETER: 22cm is what I originally proposed. This was before I knew about the Beetle @ 21.9cm so now I'm less set on this measurement. Maybe the 22-22.5cm range is my new wish list diameter.

RIM DEPTH: relatively shallow for me. Shallower than a Polecat IMO, Aeros are 1.3cm deep and I like the idea of that. Ringers are 1.2 deep and I think that might be a little too shallow for my tastes.

SHOULDER: I prefer squared but I can make just about anything work. Flight is more important to me than minor changes in grip. Major changes in grip might change my answer.

THUMTRAC: I love Thumtracs but a Rhyno style Thumtrac will kill the glide. I like the idea of a very small indentation like the RDG top but that kills glide as well. I vote for a few Ching-style Juju divots at different distances from the perimeter. You can use them if you want or ignore them and still have a traditional style profile.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: I don't know if there is any aerodynamic advantage to these but these rings are the common mode of failure on the Sonic. I vote to leave them off.

RAISED CENTER: I vote bad idea.

DOME: flat to mild dome IMO

OVERMOLD: As much as I like the idea of an overmolded lid, I think this needs to be traditional one shot, no overmold. I don't want to add complexity to the project. Maybe the next DGCR disc will be overmolded 

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: Polecat feels right to me. Putt'rs feel to roundy IMO.

BEVELED EDGE: I like the idea of a faint bevel but nothing extreme. This should be a slow disc and the lower profile is already adding a tiny bit of speed.

INTERNAL RIM RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: I like the larger radii transitions. They feel better when I flick.

PLUS RIM: Not. A. Fan. On some features I could vote either way. Not this one. I actively vote against plus rims.

WEIGHTS: yeah, I like light lids. I like 150g Polecats. My 150g Zephyr is fantastic, too. I would love for this to be produced in weights ranging from 130-180g if possible.

 

[Keller]

What I would like;

PDGA LEGAL: YES.

GLIDE: medium

NEUTRALITY: neutral

DIAMETER: 21.8 - 22cm

RIM DEPTH: 1.4 - 1.5cm

SHOULDER: squared

THUMTRAC: Prefer a Thumtrac, but not a deal breaker if it didn't have one.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: No, No, No!

RAISED CENTER: No. I hate the Sonic

DOME: flat to very slight dome

OVERMOLD: No

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: On a Lid?? Don't even know what that would look like.

BEVELED EDGE: No

INTERNAL RIM RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: No Preference

PLUS RIM: Not prefered

WEIGHTS: 150-180gr

 

[PMantle]

I agree with Marmoset.

 

[Marmoset]

Thanks for the feedback Keller! Do you think I missed anything? I tried to be thorough...

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: On a Lid?? Don't even know what that would look like.

Sorry, I don't think I described that very well. I'm not proposing a bead. I'm asking how large of a radius you prefer down where the bead would be. I described it as "bead" radius so that it would not be confused with the "rim to flightplate transition" radius.

Sorry for any confusion!

 

[Reniger]

PDGA LEGAL: Of course!

GLIDE: For a lid, I prefer mid-to-high glide

NEUTRALITY: Pure neutral would be awesome!

DIAMETER: I like large diameter lids, but we prolly wouldn't raise as much fundage. I'd say mid diameter, say around 22cm-ish

RIM DEPTH: DEEP! 1.6 sounds good!

SHOULDER: Lids are to be squared.

THUMTRAC: I can go either way, but I do enjoy the RDG style mini thumbtrac. Do not like the spoiler type for anything other than a Stego.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: MASSIVE NAY! Hate the rings. Feels like a toy from childhood.

RAISED CENTER: Dome, meh. Okay, but definitely not preferred. Intentionally raise? Bleck!

DOME: Zephyrs tend to be a little domey and I don't mind that, but I prefer flat-tops.

OVERMOLD: Nope, nope, nope!

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: Rounded is bested.

BEVELED EDGE: Not so much.

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: The Radium has a rounded transition which is SUPER comfortable for forehands, but in a lid, I think a sharp transition is best.

PLUS RIM: I'm all set! Thanks!

WEIGHTS: It would definitely be interesting to see some max weight and some lightweight (if possible) Say there's a 22cm lid, it'd be hard to get into the 150s, but mid 160s might be possible. With max weight being 180g. I would definitely get a 165g and a 180g.

 

[Mulligan]

PDGA LEGAL: YES.

GLIDE: Lots

NEUTRALITY: neutral

DIAMETER: 21.5-22.0

RIM DEPTH: 1.6cm

SHOULDER: squared

THUMTRAC: NO

RINGS OF HEDRICK: NO

RAISED CENTER: NO

DOME: Flat

OVERMOLD: No

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: Same as Polecat

BEVELED EDGE: No

INTERNAL RIM RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: Rounded might be cool, but I'm ambivalent

PLUS RIM: No

WEIGHTS: 155-180gr

 

[Dubbsy]

PDGA LEGAL: it doesn't matter to me, I wouldn't use it for sanctioned events anyway

GLIDE: Would love to see a high glide lid, but realistically aren't they all low due to it being badly shaped for aerodynamics

NEUTRALITY: Neutral

DIAMETER: 21.5-22

RIM DEPTH: 1.6

SHOULDER: Like the polecat

THUMTRAC: Yes

RINGS OF HEDRICK: no

RAISED CENTER: No

DOME: Flat

OVERMOLD: Traditional

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: No

BEVELED EDGE: No

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: Smaller but smooth

PLUS RIM: Plus rims? I dunno

WEIGHTS: Not at all. Make it as heavy as possible.

I have a few Discraft Magnets that have this cross hatched area on the inside of the rim for like 4-5" length. I didn't think anything of it until I threw one off the tee that didn't have it.

 

[Moose33]

PDGA LEGAL: Yes please

GLIDE: medium

NEUTRALITY: Neutral to stable

DIAMETER: dont like big discs, 22 cm or less

RIM DEPTH: Mid to shallow 1.3-1.5

SHOULDER: Squared

THUMTRAC: Either the RDG mini dip thing or nothing.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: No, they are not helpful.

RAISED CENTER: No! Super flat.

DOME: No! Flat.

OVERMOLD: Either way, go with the cheaper one so that we can buy it cheaper and make more money.

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: No bead.

BEVELED EDGE: If the top edge of the rim was slightly in front of the bottom like a Claws, that would be okay, but not a real bevel.

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: as long as it's not too rounded that's fine.

PLUS RIM: probably no.

WEIGHTS: whatever max for our decided diameter is.

I've been thinking about names too. And if a camel is a horse created by a committee. Then we should call our polecat designed by comittee the platapus.

 

[chevis]

I have a few Discraft Magnets that have this cross hatched area on the inside of the rim for like 4-5" length. I didn't think anything of it until I threw one off the tee that didn't have it.

Here is the answer to that, I really like the crosshatching, it's great when the disc is wet.

 

[hugheshilton]

PDGA LEGAL: Umm, most people won't bag it if it's not (including me).

GLIDE: I'd say medium. I'd rather have a little more HSS than more glide.

NEUTRALITY: Stable. If we're producing it in Fossil, then it will be pretty easy to beat into neutral/understable. Having a little more HSS when fresh will make it more useful.

DIAMETER: I have no real opinion other than it needs to fit in a bag.

RIM DEPTH: I'd prefer something in the 1.3-1.5 range. I really like 1.4.

SHOULDER: Squared off makes it more of of a real lid.

THUMTRAC: Whatever we need to get a stable flight with medium glide. Thumbtracs affect flight; they tend to reduce glide and add stability, so whether we need that might depend on what kind of stability the rest of our geometry gives us.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: No opinion, but they probably affect flight so see previous.

RAISED CENTER: See previous.

DOME: Definitely flat!

OVERMOLD: No. I see that as just adding risk/cost for no real benefit.

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: Hmm, not sure on this one really. Might depend on how it changes the flight.

BEVELED EDGE: No bevel, make it a lid.

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: Not rounded. Gateway's rounded undersides on their mids just create contention. Nobody loves them, some people deal with them okay, but some really hate them. Do a more traditional, less rounded transition.

PLUS RIM: No plus rim, see previous.

WEIGHTS: I would rather throw max weight, but others will want light weights, especially in a lid, so I'd say being able to get the weight down at least to 160 is probably important.

 

[hugheshilton]

Looks like rim depth might be the most contentious item on the list. A lot the answers are nearly universal, but that one seems pretty split. Stability might be as well, although I think we can probably deal with that through weight. Lots of folks want this in 150 class. If 150-160 is more neutral and 175 is stable, then that would be a good way to give everyone what they want.

 

[SonicGuy]

PDGA LEGAL: YES

GLIDE: High

NEUTRALITY: Neutral

DIAMETER: 21.0

RIM DEPTH: As shallow as we can make glide well

SHOULDER: Rounded shoulder but at a very low radius; preserve majority of edge as flat wall.

THUMTRAC: If present must be raised (birdie, rhyno) not depressed (banger GT)

RINGS OF HEDRICK: YES

RAISED CENTER: NO

DOME: Slight dome (allows for better nose-up glide for air bounce shots)

OVERMOLD: NO

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: As large as possible (bottom rim at full disc diameter)

BEVELED EDGE: No bevel, make it a lid.

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: Sharp as can be made durable

PLUS RIM: NO NO NO

WEIGHTS: From 150g to max pdga

 

[zenbot]

PDGA LEGAL: YES

GLIDE: High

NEUTRALITY: Neutral

DIAMETER: 21.0

RIM DEPTH: As shallow as we can make glide well

SHOULDER: Rounded shoulder but at a very low radius; preserve majority of edge as flat wall.

THUMTRAC: If present must be raised (birdie, rhyno) not depressed (banger GT)

RINGS OF HEDRICK: YES

RAISED CENTER: NO

DOME: Slight dome (allows for better nose-up glide for air bounce shots)

OVERMOLD: NO

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: As large as possible (bottom rim at full disc diameter)

BEVELED EDGE: No bevel, make it a lid.

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: Sharp as can be made durable

PLUS RIM: NO NO NO

WEIGHTS: From 150g to max pdga

I don't agree with Sonic on much (except that The Flying Burrito Brothers are amazing) but I agree with everything he said here. My vote is the same as his.

*edit*

Maybe the only difference would be if Rings of Hedrick are necessary with a Thumtrac.

 

[SonicGuy]

RE: Dome & shoulder

I highly encourage a slight dome with a slightly rounded shoulder. Domes allow discs to fly without stalling when thrown nose up. Lids love to be thrown nose up. One of the main problems with Polecats is that you cannot throw elevator shots as well as a traditional lid. A slightly rounded shoulder with a slight transitional dome will fix this.

 

[ODRB]

I don't agree with Sonic on much [but m]y vote is the same as his.

Damnit. Me too. On all of it. Except I could go either way on a thumbtrac(k).

Plus rims are hot garbage.

 

[CreemCheese]

PDGA LEGAL: Yes

GLIDE: High side of medium

NEUTRALITY: Neutral with a little high speed turn resistance

DIAMETER: As long as it fits in a bag

RIM DEPTH: Somewhere in the middle

SHOULDER:Squared off

THUMTRAC: I love the RDG thumb groove, but not for a lid. Haven't thrown a juju in so long, I forget what those divots do.

RINGS OF HEDRICK: I'm leaning toward nay on this. I think it makes the disc slip in the hand a little.

RAISED CENTER: As long it's not too tall

DOME: slight dome

OVERMOLD: no

RIM "BEAD" RADIUS: rounded

BEVELED EDGE: no

INTERNAL RIM TO FLIGHTPLATE TRANSITION RADIUS: not sure

PLUS RIM: HATE

WEIGHTS: I'm not a fan of light golf discs, so I'd probably go heavy on this.

 

[Reniger]

FAR too many people are agreeing on the Rings of Hedrick... Seriously? :thmbdown:

 

[Mulligan]

FAR too many people are agreeing on the Rings of Hedrick... Seriously? :thmbdown:

Yeah, this is going south FAST.
Just make a slightly larger diameter Polecat and call it a day or we are going too end up in the "came by committee" seat.

 

[Mulligan]

Yeah, this is going south FAST.
Just make a slightly larger diameter Polecat and call it a day or we are going too end up in the "camelby committee" seat.

5min edit danggit