The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[josser]

I end this with a question. Has anybody else been successful in finding the hammer pound, but found that it was quite far from your body or that the pull line was quite high?

Josser, I definitely have found more success with the hammer pound when I tend to keep everything further away from my body. I get that heavy disc feeling, and my Rocs and Wizards have been leaving my hand at a noticeably faster speed. This is also when I feel I get my longest drives, with hardly any physical effort at all. It even seems to yield better results with the towel drills as well. It drives me crazy b/c this seems contrary to everything I have read, and I still don't understand it. When I try to bring things close to my right pec, nothing feels right, the pound does not feel strong at all, and my consistency and distance goes out the window. The only time I feel I'm pulling close to the chest sometimes is with steep hyzers. I cannot comment on the high pull line b/c I have really been trying to keep that lower lately.
I had a friend review a few of my "further away from the body" throws, and he still thought it looked like I was keeping things tight enough to my body. I need to get some throws on video and review them to know for sure.

Good point. Once I find that throw again I should take video to see how far away from the body I actually am. But like you said, it seems crazy that it is working best when farther away from the body since that goes against the accepted good technique.

 

[krik72]

My pull line feels far away but on video it doesnt seem too extreme.

 

[JR]

I end this with a question. Has anybody else been successful in finding the hammer pound, but found that it was quite far from your body or that the pull line was quite high?

Josser, I definitely have found more success with the hammer pound when I tend to keep everything further away from my body. I get that heavy disc feeling, and my Rocs and Wizards have been leaving my hand at a noticeably faster speed. This is also when I feel I get my longest drives, with hardly any physical effort at all. It even seems to yield better results with the towel drills as well. It drives me crazy b/c this seems contrary to everything I have read, and I still don't understand it. When I try to bring things close to my right pec, nothing feels right, the pound does not feel strong at all, and my consistency and distance goes out the window. The only time I feel I'm pulling close to the chest sometimes is with steep hyzers. I cannot comment on the high pull line b/c I have really been trying to keep that lower lately.
I had a friend review a few of my "further away from the body" throws, and he still thought it looked like I was keeping things tight enough to my body. I need to get some throws on video and review them to know for sure.

Good point. Once I find that throw again I should take video to see how far away from the body I actually am. But like you said, it seems crazy that it is working best when farther away from the body since that goes against the accepted good technique.

The longest in competition airborne shot in Finland with reportedly a few feet downhill was done by Miko Fyhr. He advocated strongly for pulling the disc close to the left side and relatively far away from the right side meaning an earlier body rotation in Finnish Frisbee Association forum. Versus the standard DGR advice of disc close to the right pec then turning the final 90 degrees with the body to the rip torso facing the target. He also advocated for accelerating from the left side not the right. IIRC he threw 191 meters not far above sea level. If anyone wants to see him drive I can dig up links. I think I've only seen him on vid on Youtube twice and one was from the back. He is a very muscular guy so he may be able to accelerate for a very much longer time than most. So there may indeed exist a different option that could work for above average muscle powered throwers vs the rest of us. I can't confirm his findings from personal experience because late acceleration works better for me and because my muscle mass is at best half of his. Probably less :-( So I may belong to a different group of throwers negating my ability to disprove his preference.

Chris Voight the first 200 m world record maker advocates reaching back far away from the body. From personal experience I can confirm that this does loosen the arm muscles making them move faster. Miko does this too. I get even more D out of bent elbow throwing turning the shoulders 200+ degrees from the target with the hips 180 from the target at reach back toe pointing 180 away from the target.

 

[josser]

So there may indeed exist a different option that could work for above average muscle powered throwers vs the rest of us.

I have roughly the same strength as a nerdy teenager and exactly the same strength as a nerdy former teenager.

JR, if you can dig up those links, that would be sweet.

 

[JR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1iwMfZ2kZo Miko is the one with the orange shirt and white trousers. Erno the guy in black and white was 8th at Big D 8 and the lefty Markus is a Finnish Champion and a true gentleman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua9q14IYOIo early spring practice so take that into account. This is the field where i have more throws than anywhere else combined. The field is too short for these guys. At the limits of usability for me too. The guy in black is the secretary of the Finnish Frisbee Association and Miko is the one with the green/yellow jacket. They play together and have some similarities in form. Jaani the guy in black throws usually to around 130-140 m i gather and the sky is the limit for Miko. I think he can throw 600' or close to it on flat land at sea level in calm weather so that would according to Avery Jenkins translate to 750' at Primm with a good throw! Booom!!!

There's a low resolution vid of Miko from the user MikeJones on Youtube as well.

 

[gretagun]

Starting with the disc in front of your stomach and your wrist slightly curled around the disc.

I know in a normal throw, the wrist closes automatically, but does it start closing as it reaches the right pec (or stomach), or after it has passed the right side of the body?

Last night, I was practicing this technique, and was getting a much stronger "pound" when I do slightly curl my wrist at the stomach or right pec area. In my normal throwing motion, it seems like my wrist closes after it has passed the right side of my body. I was just practicing these drills by throwing into an old mattress, but everytime I allowed my wrist to curl earlier rather than trying to keep it straight, I got a much stronger pound, as long as I remained smooth and relaxed. Does this sound correct or am I way off again? :lol: When working from the hit back with the disc at the right pec, should my wrist be slightly curled as recommended by this drill?

 

[jbenjohnson]

First, thanks Blake for putting all of this together. Job well done.

Second, thanks all for posting your results, its helpful to read what other people are doing.

I went out for an hour of field practice yesterday - all I have to show for it is a sore shoulder and knee. I'm obviously trying to throw too hard.

During actual rounds however, I'm throwing from a standstill and I noticed that I am more accurate.

 

[jbenjohnson]

Went out for some more practice today and made some progress.

I started with the forehand. After doing some drills, I now have a 250' accurate forehand, from a standstill and a little wrist flick. Straight as an arrow, with little OAT.

Seeing myself throw 250' with a little wrist flick just shed light on how flawed my backhand must be to only throw 300'. I'm applying the torque incorrectly.

So I broke down my backhand way down. I had a mini-breakthrough when I realized I was letting the disc slip and not rip from my hand. I had a freak throw at the end where I really clamped down and I was surprised at how it launched from my hand. Went 320' with little effort.

Two things:
1. My arm feels "dead", even though I stretched, threw REALLY light and threw probably 50 shots.
2. I'm not getting the feeling of a "heavy" disc.

Would love to hear more people's experiences/notes.

 

[JR]

Welcome to the forum you picked a great thread to start posting in :-D

For the heavy feeling and learning to determine whether it was a slip or a rip and preventing slips try putting just the index finger onto the rim of the disc. That way there is about a fourth of the area in which the pressure of the acceleration is concentrated on so it squashes the finger pad more. At your power the heavy feeling ain't as strong as with higher power and probably harder accelerations needed to achieve longer flights. So to get the feeling and the idea that one finger grip is fine. You need to warm up well and start at less than full power because for the unexperienced and those with weaker fingers the one finger grip may cause injuries. Especially with more repetitions. I threw 400' at spring on the best throws and using two finger grip rarely and four finger power grip pinching hard with the index finger being unable to pinch hard enough with the thumb i got my index finger sore for months. I also practiced with grippers and lifting weights with two and three fingers I think then it was up to 22 pounds. That left reverse image of the weight handle onto my skin for minutes.

 

[discraft]

I am starting to get more confident using my sidearm for drives instead of just to get out of trouble.I can park some holes with my sidearm and even had some near aces.Only holes <300' for now.The flip-back drill helped me translate from the backhand to the sidearm.

 

[cfair]

I've been going through a little process on DGCR. I'm rebuilding my throw focusing on the hammer drill and a couple of other thing. Primarily hammer though, I would say I'm maybe half hitting it. From a standing position I'm getting my putters about 230' and I just added a step today getting an extra 20'-30' and straight as a bigamist. Anyone have any tips on what helped to transition from half hitting it to lets say 60-65% hitting it? Also Blake once mentioned to me on the phone this idea about double snap or double hit. I think I have an idea for it that has really impacted my line shaping. Unfortunately its just getting colder...

 

[Iman522]

So I know its winter and Blake_T and masterbeato don't get on all that often but I was wondering if anybody has add any new revelations/successes?

Just my current thoughts on this. The whole idea is money. It will really help you throw that 250 ft sidearm and even helps you a little with the overheads. I must say I struggled a little more to get the results with the backhand part but it is there if you are willing. What I think happened with this is it was kind of announced as like 400 ft within 30 minutes and what people did is they went out and expected immediate results and when they didn't came they gave up. I did this to but recently tried it again and really worked every angle testing out arm positions, speed and timing and I must say it helped a lot. I think I can say that I am up to the last plateau consistently finally (365-380 with a teebird) which is both awesome and frustrating at the same time because even though I am throwing farther, I know I can break this last plateau. Anyways...has anybody at all had any new ideas revelations for this?

 

[jenb1]

I didn't see this question answered here yet, so sorry if its a repeat.

I have seen some people saying that men and women need to have different driving techniques, and the women's technique takes more advantage of the lower body strength. Basically, the advice was that women need to watch driving videos of pro women and not the videos of pro men. Is there any truth to that?

Does the Super Sekret technique work for women? Are there any adjustments that need to be made to any of the drills for women? Are certain of the drills helpful for women and others not so much?

 

[Star Shark]

The Secret Technique is about snap which is a common part of the throw to both sexes. For a female, the body positions involved in the overall throw are gonna be a bit different as the body mass and physical power comes from a different place in women (the legs and hips, whereas for men it's the shoulders and back). Note - it's not that all of the strength comes from these areas but the proportions of it are going to be different due to these differences.

 

[garublador1]

So I know its winter and Blake_T and masterbeato don't get on all that often but I was wondering if anybody has add any new revelations/successes?

Just my current thoughts on this. The whole idea is money. It will really help you throw that 250 ft sidearm and even helps you a little with the overheads. I must say I struggled a little more to get the results with the backhand part but it is there if you are willing. What I think happened with this is it was kind of announced as like 400 ft within 30 minutes and what people did is they went out and expected immediate results and when they didn't came they gave up. I did this to but recently tried it again and really worked every angle testing out arm positions, speed and timing and I must say it helped a lot. I think I can say that I am up to the last plateau consistently finally (365-380 with a teebird) which is both awesome and frustrating at the same time because even though I am throwing farther, I know I can break this last plateau. Anyways...has anybody at all had any new ideas revelations for this?

It won't give you a consistent 400' throw with a Teebird after 30 minutes, but it will teach you what you need to know to build a consistent 400' throw with a Teebird. It will take quite a bit of repetition and experimentation to figure out how to do it consistently, but that's a huge improvement over just hoping to randomly figure it out and then still needing the repetition and experimentation.

So, to answer your question, probably not.

 

[turso]

Putter's the best thing for figuring out the snap, worked for me at least. You know you're getting a snap when your index finger's top most joint gets hurt after the throw and you feel the disc bending itself around the finger when it releases.

 

[gretagun]

It won't give you a consistent 400' throw with a Teebird after 30 minutes, but it will teach you what you need to know to build a consistent 400' throw with a Teebird. It will take quite a bit of repetition and experimentation to figure out how to do it consistently, but that's a huge improvement over just hoping to randomly figure it out and then still needing the repetition and experimentation.

So, to answer your question, probably not.

I agree with this 100%. The SS Technique has helped me gain a better understanding of what should be going on during the throw. What is great about this technique is it forces you to focus on the snap/hammer throw, while not having to worry about all the other throwing fundamentals such as body postioning, timing, etc. They just kind of fall in place if you are doing things correctly. Once you get this down, THEN you can start focusing on how to improve your body positioning,timing, work from the hit back, etc to maximize your throwing distance.

For the last 4 years, I think I was "hoping to randomly figure it out" in the field, but now I have a better understanding of what I'm working towards.

 

[Blake_T1]

Iman:

the posted version of the SS technique basically teaches how to "half hit" a throw, which is about what it takes to put a wraith/destroyer 430' on a line drive S. you learn to control the weight shift of the disc and truly accelerate it into the power zone. its concepts are universal for pretty much all sports/martial arts and will work for backhand, sidearm, overhand, and putting. reps are always the key and that's where most people slip up. the first 500 reps or so will basically "smooth out" form and build efficiency. e.g. after 500 hammer drill throws (executed correctly) people will most likely find they can throw just as far with half the effort, but when they inject 100% power they aren't going to jump more than 10-15% or so. after 5000 reps or so the power will slowly build as your wrist and grip get stronger. the real secret is the full hit throw, of which i have nothing that is as easy to learn.

i am onto like 5 or 6 methods of teaching the full hit, but nothing concrete. probably the best thing for now i've had people do is throw aerobie rings. aerobie rings are thrown with a pure "out motion" or "outward pull" as brad walker would have called it. basically, you pinch it and give a little zip snap of the wrist beyond neutral and it flings.

the idea is to hammer in and then zip snap out as a smooth motion = full hit.

sadly the out motion is significantly more powerful than the in motion. while a strong hammer in and weak zip out might yield 450'ish D (or more like 480' on a distance S with a nuke or r pro boss, etc.), it's possible to break that without having any hammer in and just an amazing lever zip out. overall, the hammer is more useful for quickly cleaning up noise and streamlining form and giving an idea of "good" timing.

ihasadisc:

having taught over a dozen women to throw 300'+ on their first day of playing (half a dozen of which hit 350' their first day) i don't really believe in the ideas that men and women should have drastically different throwing styles. i won't argue the differences in physiology (muscle strength, body proportions, etc. are different) but many of these can/should be compensated for with mold selection and disc weight. hand strength and hand size are the two dominant factors that are usually overlooked when working with women. overall though, whether it's a man, woman, space alien with an opposable thumb, or disc throwing robot, the concepts of what makes a disc fly far and well remain the same while the scale potentials differ depending upon the physical characteristics.


all of the drills should work for anyone, women just might need to choose lighter discs with narrower rims than the average man might use.

You know you're getting a snap when your index finger's top most joint gets hurt after the throw and you feel the disc bending itself around the finger when it releases.

actually, pain is a sign of either a slip or hyper-extension. it should be painless if you launch a disc with proper form/timing.

 

[garublador1]

For the last 4 years, I think I was "hoping to randomly figure it out" in the field, but now I have a better understanding of what I'm working towards.

That's where I was, too. I had more half hits on the first day I tried the drills as I did in the previous 4 years of experimenting and it was during a round, not a field session where I threw a ton of drives.

 

[JR]

snipped
ihasadisc:

having taught over a dozen women to throw 300'+ on their first day of playing (half a dozen of which hit 350' their first day) i don't really believe in the ideas that men and women should have drastically different throwing styles. i won't argue the differences in physiology (muscle strength, body proportions, etc. are different) but many of these can/should be compensated for with mold selection and disc weight. hand strength and hand size are the two dominant factors that are usually overlooked when working with women. overall though, whether it's a man, woman, space alien with an opposable thumb, or disc throwing robot, the concepts of what makes a disc fly far and well remain the same while the scale potentials differ depending upon the physical characteristics.


all of the drills should work for anyone, women just might need to choose lighter discs with narrower rims than the average man might use.

You know you're getting a snap when your index finger's top most joint gets hurt after the throw and you feel the disc bending itself around the finger when it releases.

actually, pain is a sign of either a slip or hyper-extension. it should be painless if you launch a disc with proper form/timing.

With 350' you would dominate most men on most courses and all of the men on quite a few courses. Physiology varies wildly between men. The same goes for women. What Blake was saying is that the laws of nature are the same for everyone. So you basically use the exact same form to the opposite sex provided your physiology doesn't allow it. And there are women and men with fairly similar body build at least in some body shapes when one thinks of the necessities dictated by the laws of physics.

There are two differences between sexes that women need to address and men don't generally need to think of. Because we guys lack an uterus and our chest ain't so susceptible to being hit in some heights of arm pull. Us Europeans often pull the disc much lower than Americans. Low enough to endanger the uterus for females. Dave Dunipace (former world champion and distance record holder) of Innova has championed pulling the disc at shoulder height. That is safe for ladies and laddies. Some people on this forum from the States have lowered their pull line to chest area and that is ill advised for ladies for added breast cancer risk from mistakenly hitting your breasts and depending on your anatomy possibly also forcing the disc too far away from the torso. Which reduces the distance you can achieve.

Chris Voigt was the first man to push the distance record to 200 meters and he advocates keeping the throwing arm away from the body in sideways direction at the reach back then bringing the disc to almost grazing the torso once the disc is at around your right side for a right handed backhand throw. Many on this forum has duplicated the desirable goals of Chris by having the arm being more relaxed. Which leads to a faster arm motion thus added distance. Not every woman can do that at under shoulder height safely. Keeping the arm away from the torso has an added plus to women over men in that keeping the disc away from the body from reach back to about the right side reduces the chances of hurting yourself bad in the long run by hitting a sensitive area with a disc. Unfortunately everyone messes up and pulling at uterus to breast height is always going to risk trouble. That is why i recommend taking the slightly higher arm muscle tension and slower shorter toss of pulling at the shoulder level for women. You can double your safety by keeping the disc far away from the body at the reach back at shoulder height.