UDisc Release Point Blog

[SocraDeez]

Couldn't find a thread for the UDisc "Release Point" blog, so here we are folks. If you're interested in the standardization & history of disc golf discs, they just published a couple nice reads on the PDGA disc approval process. Really solid writing from Mr. Alex Williamson.

Why & How Discs Get PDGA Approved
https://udisc.com/blog/post/why-how-discs-get-pdga-approved

Thankfully, Alex disregarded the wizard's instruction to "Pay no attention to the man behind that curtain" and also gave us this portrait of Jeff Homburg, the chair of the PDGA Technical Standards Working Group.

Meet The Man Who Approved Your Discs
https://www.udisc.com/blog/post/meet-the-man-who-approved-your-discs

 

[SocraDeez]

Here are some salient bits from the first article. Tools of the disc-testing trade:

Contention concerning whether or not plastic variants for the approved molds should also be tested:

After a disc model receives approval, it's left up to manufacturers to adhere to PDGA regulations as they make more discs of the approved model. This is true even when approved models are made out of new plastic blends (or other materials) that were not part of the tested samples the PDGA received, which could significantly alter qualities the PDGA tests for, such as flexibility.

For a brief period in the mid-aughts, that wasn't the case as Homburg had finally convinced the PDGA Board of Directors to enact a requirement for all variants of a disc to be tested after lobbying for it since the mid-1990s. But some members of the manufacturing community pushed back.

"Some of the companies revolted against that and put a lot of pressure on the Board, so much so that they reversed their decision," Homburg said. "So as it is, they're not required [to have variants tested]."

On a related note, Homburg did a study about 12 years ago where he independently tested several hundred discs of approved models for compliance with the PDGA's flexibility standard, and he said 9.6% of them didn't pass.

 

[SocraDeez]

From the second article:

Jeff "Hummer Thumber" Homburg recounting an early distance competition: "I came in 11th throwing a Wham-O Super Pro 385 feet with a thumber – and by that I mean the real thumber, not the hook thumber people call thumbers now."

The OG thumber:



The PDGA disc weight limit standards developed in part due to concern for safety: (I would add to the following that the heavy discs became trendy because they flew better for a game of golf).

It had become a trend for disc makers to create heavier and heavier discs, finding plenty of people willing to snap them up for the novelty or to bag them as a source of pride. Some found this not only gimmicky but also a potential danger because the discs were being thrown in courses built in public parks. Hoping to curb the trend, the PDGA made a decision to disallow the use of discs that weighed over 200 grams at events it sanctioned.

Ed Headrick, who had previously disallowed any non-Wham-O discs from PDGA sanctioned play, was frustrated at times with the new disc approval process:

"Back when Ed [Headrick] ran things, basically anything he came out with was automatically approved because he was in control of the PDGA," Homburg explained. "It took me a few years to bring him into the fold. He kept releasing things that weren't approved."

This tension came to a head when, at the 1992 PDGA Amateur World Championships, Headrick was giving out versions of three Innova discs he'd significantly altered from their approved state and put a personal stamp on as part of the player's pack. He then learned at the tournament that none of those altered discs were legal for players to use.

"Ed gets back to [his home in] California, and he calls me up and asks me about this, and I tell him, 'Well, discs have to go through a formal process,'" Homburg said.

As they talked about the matter more, Homburg explained another reason Headrick's discs could be illegal in sanctioned play.

"I said, 'You know, Ed, that could be considered to be an intentionally modified disc, which is expressly forbidden in the standards,'" Homburg said. "Then Ed threatened to sue me and the PDGA. And I said, 'The minute you sue me is the minute I resign.' I had enough headaches in my paid job."

Headrick never sued, but the committee eventually decided to allow the discs in sanctioned play. Headrick didn't always win, however. Homburg said Headrick called about once a month trying to influence the technical standards and often didn't get his way. Still, Homburg thinks the father of disc golf ultimately respected the job he was doing.

 

[Luckj]

From the second article:

Jeff "Hummer Thumber" Homburg recounting an early distance competition: "I came in 11th throwing a Wham-O Super Pro 385 feet with a thumber – and by that I mean the real thumber, not the hook thumber people call thumbers now."

The OG thumber:

I've never seen the OG thumber, really neat. Wonder if there would be a time to use it on the course.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Used to throw frisbees like that every now and then when I was a kid. Dunno why I've never really tried it for dg. :\

It rotates the same direction as FH, so you'd expect it to have a tendency to fade the same direction as a "conventional" FH throw.

Purely speculation on my part but:
I have a feeling it generates less spin than a typical FH, which should make it turn more at a given release velocity.

It also seems like it would be harder to release on a hyzer angle, and maybe easier to release on an anhyzer angle, relative to a conventional FH shot.

That said, the only way to find out is to try it. Wouldn't surprise me if we get some fairly different flights between this OG thumber, and typical FH shots propelled by your fingers.

 

[Rastnav]

The PDGA disc weight limit standards developed in part due to concern for safety: (I would add to the following that the heavy discs became trendy because they flew better for a game of golf).

... Hoping to curb the trend, the PDGA made a decision to disallow the use of discs that weighed over 200 grams at events it sanctioned.

This relates to something I've been curious about. What do people mean when they say they throw "max weight" discs?

As I understand it, the current PDGA maximum disc weight for competition is 175 grams. Is anything 170+ considered effectively max weight? Or do people really mean that they try and select discs that are actually 175 grams?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Sorry for the thread drift, but I just want to answer his question.

This relates to something I've been curious about. What do people mean when they say they throw "max weight" discs?

As I understand it, the current PDGA maximum disc weight for competition is 175 grams. Is anything 170+ considered effectively max weight? Or do people really mean that they try and select discs that are actually 175 grams?

The PDGA max weight is dictated by disc diameter.

175g is the max for discs 21.1 cm in diameter, which is most drivers. For 21.2 cm, the max weight is 176g.

Many mids have larger diameters, and thus are allowed in heavier weights. Buzzzes and Rocs are 21.7 cm, and have a max approved weight of 180g.

https://www.pdga.com/technical-standards/equipment-certification/discs

 

[c_a_miller]

This relates to something I've been curious about. What do people mean when they say they throw "max weight" discs?

As I understand it, the current PDGA maximum disc weight for competition is 175 grams. Is anything 170+ considered effectively max weight? Or do people really mean that they try and select discs that are actually 175 grams?

The maximum weight of a disc isn't always 175g. On the PDGA approved disc page, you can see the max approved weight for each disc. https://www.pdga.com/technical-standards/equipment-certification/discs

It all depends on the diameter of the disc. Rocs and some other mids have a max weight of 180g because they have a larger diameter. Condors have a max weight of 200g.

Generally when people say max weight, they really mean max weight.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

FTFY

Generally when people say max weight, they really mean max weight for a given mold.

But let's try to stay on topic of the throw.
Does anyone use this throw with any regularity?

 

[SocraDeez]

What do people mean when they say they throw "max weight" discs?

The idea of "max. weight" played an absolutely critical role when disc golf was first shaping itself into a sport in the early 80s. How much should a golf disc be allowed to weigh? How much ought a golf disc to weigh?

But let's start with an easier question: Why was the first disc manufactured explicitly for golf - the Wham-O Night/Midnight Flyer - a glow disc? Because glow discs were heavier! The addition of glow-in-the-dark phosphorous doubled as a weighting agent, and, compared to their non-glow-plastic-same-mold counterparts, they flew better for golf. Per Ed Headrick, the Midnight Flyers were 40-45% glow material mixed with polyethylene plastic. "It really was a coincidence they were made of glow material. Moonlighter plastic was used to make the discs weigh more." This was the distinguishing characteristic of the Midnight Flyers sold by Ed & DGA - the heavy plastic recipe. Midnight Flyers came in various molds (e.g. Wham-O 22, Wham-O 80) but used the same plastic. The opposite is true for golf discs made today! For early plastic addicts, the Midnight Flyer price went up as the disc weight went up - $5.50 for a ~124 g Wham-O 22 & $7.50 for a ~196 g Wham-O 80.

So the people wanted heavy discs, and in whizzed Jan Sobel to give the people what they wanted - the Puppy, 179+ grams with many over 200 g & christened such because early disc golfers referred to cute girls at the parks as "puppies." Innova founder Dave Dunipace recalls Sobel's contribution to the development of golf discs: "This is what Sobel really brought into disc golf and should be credited for: He and the Brand X guys raised the weight limit of golf discs. He let the genie out of the bottle with the heavy ballistic discs."

Jan also gave the people what they didn't know they wanted: smaller heavy discs. Jim Palmieri, the keeper of flying disc history, writes: "Jan Sobel and his Puppy marks an extremely important juncture in the development of the golf disc. It began the evolution of the golf disc. Before that, the golf disc was merely stock Frisbee discs pumped up with weight. When Ed Headrick's heavy 40 molds got popular, disc golf evolution was merely a thought that bigger was better. What followed was a variety of Frisbee discs getting pumped up. No one thought of going the other way with the disc size, except Jan Sobel. Until he came up with the 21 cm Puppy, golf disc evolution was stagnated. We just assumed that the big heavy discs were what we had and were the way to go. No one was really thinking that there might be an alternative. Except Jan." Jan recounts: "I remember thinking the 23 [cm disc] was an improvement on the 24 [cm disc], so I thought smaller might be better. I was going to make a 22 and just decided to go down one more step to a 21. I guess I had a stroke of brilliance coming up with a disc that turned out to be the right size."

The Puppy, the hot young thing at the park, quickly became popular with players. On the arrival of the Puppy, Joe Feidt writes in Disc Golfer Magazine: "The real fun starts when the delighted disc golfers throw the new discs that Jan is selling - it's obvious from the get-go that they go way farther than the Midnight Flyers. More projectiles than the float-in-the-air Midnight Flyers, these new discs travel far and straight and then drop like a stone when they lose spin." The Puppy, however, was banned by Ed Headrick, of course, for use in competition at the first PDGA sanctioned World Championships in 1982; only Wham-O mold discs would be allowed. At a meeting of regional pros/PDGA sales reps before the Championships, Ed even staged a heavy disc intervention: Joe Feidt writes, "He arranged for a speaker, a psychologist, to lecture the pros about the intrinsic beauty and benefits of light plastic; nobody was buying it. The meeting was dragging on, it was warm and sunny outside, and everyone was itching to get out of that room and throw some discs."

The first to invest in the idea of "max. weight" golf discs, Ed was now concerned that discs had become too heavy (& certain ones too popular). There was bystander safety to consider with most courses being in multi-use public parks. He polled the members of the newly formed PDGA on weight & size restrictions of golf discs. Joe Feidt writes: "Out of the 2000 (or so) he mailed, 269 were received by the June 30 deadline. The most votes (91) came in for 8 grams per centimeter. The next most popular choice (67 votes) was 8.5 grams. The final weighted average came out to 8.3178 g/cm... Players also approved a 200-gram weight limit and a 21-cm minimum diameter." This was the first major official PDGA decision determined by player vote.*

*Jeff Homburg, who now helps enforce this disc design standard as chair of the PDGA Technical Standards Working Group, boycotted the 1983 World Championships in protest. Jeff recounts: "I did start a petition and got a lot of people to sign it," said Homburg. "I sent it to the people in charge of technical standards...but I wasn't able to convince them they should allow the heavier discs."

How much should a golf disc be allowed to weigh? Remarkably, the 200 gram max. max. weight, 21 cm min. diameter, & 8.3 g/cm weight to diameter standard for PDGA approved golf discs is still in place.

The next major decision determined by player will was to allow non-Wham-O golf discs - specifically, Jan's smaller, heavier Puppy & Dave Dunipace's smaller, heavier, bevel-edged Aero, the new new hot young thing at the park - to be used in competition at the second PDGA sanctioned World Championships, held in Huntsville, AL in 1983. Per PDGA.com/history: "Tournament Directors Tom Monroe #33 and Lavone Wolfe #580 didn't ask Ed—they told Ed—that any legal-weight disc, including Eagles [Aeros] and Puppies, could be thrown. This was the first time the players prevailed in a contest of wills with Ed. It was this Huntsville controversy more than anything else that persuaded Ed to decide to slowly relinquish control of the PDGA to the players."

How much ought a golf disc to weigh? This is most difficult to measure. Lavone Wolfe, the first PDGA Technical Standards chair, recalls: "[Jan] pushed ballistics forward with his penchant for heavy discs. I was one that fought to allow manufacturers like him to work to find the balance between weight, aerodynamics, and ballistics. We lost because of fear of injury and lawsuits. I believe that today the weight limits should be lifted and the players will naturally throw what flies best."

In short: Early disc golf players eagerly snapped up "max. weight" discs because they were better suited for playing golf than their catch-predecessors. Concern for public safety (and perhaps for the sales of existing, lighter weight discs) motivated a nascent PDGA to create weight & size standards for golf discs. It's hard to say if these ought to still be the standards. Food for thought: most modern pros prefer to throw "max. weight" - that is, PDGA-allowed max. weight given the mold - discs.

Sources (in addition to already linked blog posts):

https://www.pdga.com/history

Jim Palmieri - A Chain of Events: The Origin and Evolution of Disc Golf

http://www.omagdigital.com/publicat...ew=articleBrowser&article_id=578868&ver=html5

http://www.omagdigital.com/publicat...w=articleBrowser&article_id=1409586&ver=html5

https://www.flyingdiscmuseum.com/blog/2020/10/midnight-flyers-in-all-their-glowry

 

[KillerKoala777]

Tournament Directors Tom Monroe #33 and Lavone Wolfe #580 didn't ask Ed—they told Ed—that any legal-weight disc, including Eagles [Aeros] and Puppies, could be thrown. This was the first time the players prevailed in a contest of wills with Ed. It was this Huntsville controversy more than anything else that persuaded Ed to decide to slowly relinquish control of the PDGA to the players."

Huh, I live in Huntsville and have met both Lavone and Tom and knew they were important in the DG world, but I had no idea they TD'ed the second world championships! I've enjoyed the history lesson!

It's also crazy to me that this smallish city in the south had such an impact on this sport that was starting in Cali at the time.

 

[notapro]

Something about rockets and disc golf going hand in hand, eh?

 

[txmxer]

If you throw a thumbed like that very often I would think most would have shoulder and/or elbow issues.

 

[Three Putt]

The next major decision determined by player will was to allow non-Wham-O golf discs - specifically, Jan's smaller, heavier Puppy & Dave Dunipace's smaller, heavier, bevel-edged Aero, the new new hot young thing at the park - to be used in competition at the second PDGA sanctioned World Championships, held in Huntsville, AL in 1983. Per PDGA.com/history: "Tournament Directors Tom Monroe #33 and Lavone Wolfe #580 didn't ask Ed—they told Ed—that any legal-weight disc, including Eagles [Aeros] and Puppies, could be thrown. This was the first time the players prevailed in a contest of wills with Ed. It was this Huntsville controversy more than anything else that persuaded Ed to decide to slowly relinquish control of the PDGA to the players."

I'm sure the Huntsville World's played a part in Ed's decision to turn over the PDGA to the players, but the "more than anything else" issue Ed faced is that his whole PDGA idea was propped up by sponsorship support from Wham-O and Wham-O had been sold to Kransco. Kransco had no interest if propping up Frisbee sports so they shut down the IFA and ended sponsorship for PDGA events. Poof! There went the financial underpinning of the whole shebang. The bottom was falling out of Frisbee Sports. Ed let the other discs in because he had no reason to protect Wham-O's hold on the disc golf market anymore. Wham-O wasn't giving him any money anymore. Ed was even making his own discs by then.

It gets retold in a lot of different way to make it seem like Ed just graciously turned over the PDGA, but the truth is that all Ed knew how to do from his days with the IFA and the early PDGA was to live off corporate money. Once the corporate money was gone, he had no way of continuing the PDGA. His options were to turn it over or shut it down.

 

[turbosteve]

I'm sure the Huntsville World's played a part in Ed's decision to turn over the PDGA to the players, but the "more than anything else" issue Ed faced is that his whole PDGA idea was propped up by sponsorship support from Wham-O and Wham-O had been sold to Kransco. Kransco had no interest if propping up Frisbee sports so they shut down the IFA and ended sponsorship for PDGA events. Poof! There went the financial underpinning of the whole shebang. The bottom was falling out of Frisbee Sports. Ed let the other discs in because he had no reason to protect Wham-O's hold on the disc golf market anymore. Wham-O wasn't giving him any money anymore. Ed was even making his own discs by then.

It gets retold in a lot of different way to make it seem like Ed just graciously turned over the PDGA, but the truth is that all Ed knew how to do from his days with the IFA and the early PDGA was to live off corporate money. Once the corporate money was gone, he had no way of continuing the PDGA. His options were to turn it over or shut it down.

Disc Golf is still chasing the big sponsor as well despite the dramatic growth in the sport. This is a big reason why I think the PDGA should focus on grassroots growth instead of growing the pro tour.

 

[Three Putt]

Disc Golf is still chasing the big sponsor as well despite the dramatic growth in the sport. This is a big reason why I think the PDGA should focus on grassroots growth instead of growing the pro tour.

Yeah, it's our weird history. Or maybe it's not so weird, maybe it's just the reality of our times. I mean at least maybe the PDGA has a shot at disc golf finally developing into its own thing. The WFDF will always operate under the shadow of the old World Frisbee Championships at the Rose Bowl, which is a level that Frisbee sports are never, ever going to get close to.

The World Frisbee Championships were a mirage; it was Wham-O marketing money propping up a facade that Frisbee sports were a big-time thing when they were not. The '79 $50,000 disc golf tournament at Huntington Beach was the disc golf mirage; that was Wham-O marketing money trying to make a bunch of hippies throwing Frisbee's in the park seem like a big deal. They just were not; it was all a mirage. Everything about Ed's IFA and PDGA were a mirage propped up by Wham-O's pocketbook.

Once the Wham-O money disappears, everything changes. The PDGA becomes a player-run organization. The bevel-edged golf disc is allowed in competition, allowing Innova's patent to dictate the development of golf discs into the '00's. You essentially switch from a sport beholden to Wham-O to a sport beholden to Innova, the difference being that Wham-O had been deep-pocketed corporation and Innova was a cash-strapped start up. Soon after the players take over the PDGA, amateurs are allowed membership and disc golf starts the process of developing the base of players it lacked.

Disc golf lacked a base of amateur players because of the upside-down approach of creating a "Pro" sport out of thin air and propping it up with corporate money. It was unsustainable and somewhat amazing that it lasted as long as it did.

 

[Jeffrey Homburg]

Used to throw frisbees like that every now and then when I was a kid. Dunno why I've never really tried it for dg. :\

It rotates the same direction as FH, so you'd expect it to have a tendency to fade the same direction as a "conventional" FH throw.

Purely speculation on my part but:
I have a feeling it generates less spin than a typical FH, which should make it turn more at a given release velocity.

It also seems like it would be harder to release on a hyzer angle, and maybe easier to release on an anhyzer angle, relative to a conventional FH shot.

That said, the only way to find out is to try it. Wouldn't surprise me if we get some fairly different flights between this OG thumber, and typical FH shots propelled by your fingers.

;Actually, my theory is that a thumber generates significantly more spin that any other throw, which is why it's best shot in Guts and why helicopter-type thumbers generate so much spin in freestyle. Thumbers don't generate as much forward inertia, however. Because the disc is farther from your shoulder with a two finger sidearm grip in than a thumber grip, there is more centrifugal force with a sidearm or backhand. The biggest problem throwing the thumber today is that it's more difficult to fully grip beveled discs with shallow rim depths than either the sidearm. The beveled discs tilted the advantage to the backhand players. For the first discs made for disc golf, the DGA's Midnight Flyers, thumbers were very effective and I always thought they gave me an advantage over other players in the pre-1983 era of disc golf.