What % of Disc Golfers Cheat

[scarpfish]

Karma - Often hearlded on message boards by people like its some great supernatural thing that makes all right with the world, but really just an excuse for not proactively doing those right things up front. "Karma" much like the rules, doesn't enforce itself.

 

[zenbot]

You're not doing anybody any favors that way.

I have sometimes called out the wrong score; when I forgot a short tree hit or I was thinking about another hole. I was glad when the scorekeeper double checked and helped me get it right.

You are there to make sure you and the other players write down the correct score. Frankly, it comes across as selfish or cowardly to shirk that duty.

I've seen it go the other way where it felt like a bad hole and the player gave themselves too many strokes. I'm pretty sure I've said 4 when I missed a 2 before because missing made it feel like a bogie.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I play my own game and not worry about anyone else. Cheaters only cheat themselves. And when I keep score I write whatever you tell me. So I think you threw 4 but you say 3, I write 3 and move on. I believe in karma and the cheater will get cheated.

So if you see a shoplifter, you don't say anything to anyone because kharma's supposed to get him in the long run?
Kharma means squat if we don't help it along.

And no, cheaters don't only cheat themselves. They directly cheat the people who finish behind them... particularly when it comes to payouts.

It's one thing if you aren't paying particularly close attention, but when you know someone to be the wrong, I think you have a moral obligation to speak up, especially when not doing so can adversely affect others and the outcome of an event, whether it's a league round or an unsanctioned event. The way I see it, that's key part of self-policing our game that goes straight to the integrity of the sport.

 

[agentdozzer]

So if you see a shoplifter, you don't say anything to anyone because kharma's supposed to get him in the long run?
Kharma means squat if we don't help it along.

And no, cheaters don't only cheat themselves. They directly cheat the people who finish behind them... particularly when it comes to payouts.

It's one thing if you aren't paying particularly close attention, but when you know someone to be the wrong, I think you have a moral obligation to speak up, especially when not doing so can adversely affect others and the outcome of an event, whether it's a league round or an unsanctioned event. The way I see it, that's key part of self-policing our game that goes straight to the integrity of the sport.

Im no snitch shoplifting is a victimless crime. Let em go if they are slick enough.

 

[F.Luke]

"If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying...."

I have always hated that statement. You see it in every sport now. Hockey is full of penalties which aren't called to keep the flow of the game blah blah blah. Football has holding on EVERY play and that is accepted. Let's not get started on basketball with travelling......

It has been a pet peeve of mine for as long as I can remember. The mentality of "if I can get away with it, then it's fair". To me it's about integrity and respect. You have to respect the rules and the players you are playing with. I hate having to call people out on stuff, but if I break a rule I call myself out on it and expect other players to honestly call me out. No need for drama.

I play ball golf 2-3 times a year with a friend. We are on the same page. We play to try to make some shots and have a good time. There is no reason to cheat our scores because we aren't trying to impress anyone. But, we play with his dad and usually one of his dad's work friends. They are always good to talk to and nice, but I always notice the cheating. And it always makes me wonder what they are trying to gain? Bragging rights? Over a casual game?

I know this sounds all moral whigh ground and preachy, but disc golf is an individual sport where when you cheat you are simply cheating yourself. I play for myself, to try to achieve something. (obviously I mean in general, cuz I am really new to disc golf, haha).

I am really new, so have not played a tournament at this point, but if players are going into that playing environment, my take is that you call faults and expect them called on you. No drama. Because otherwise what is the point? You train and practice to play a game that is defined by a set of rules. So use those rules to conduct the game. Seems simple to me and anyone abusing it is childish.

Do I understand innocent stuff, like inadvertent foot faults, etc. Sure. But if I foot fault......then I foot fault. Move on. Try to get better. Done.

Preach on. Personal integrity is the name of the game. I want to be able to call myself on foot faults. The pdga doesn't allow it. (How's that for thread drift, Lyle?)

I have noticed compared to other sports both the main disc sports (ultimate and disc golf) that it seems cheating is much much less common then in other sports. I honestly think that is due to the self-policing nature of the sport.

I played soccer for most of life and I had all kinds of fun ways of creatively slowing down an opponent. I just thought of it as part of the game. If you get caught you get caught but to me winning was more important then fair play. Fair play was the refs job.

For some reason I have never felt the same way about ultimate or disc golf. Probably because fair play and self-policing are more important parts of the game.

I agree. I've played soccer and ultimate and was a FIFA registered official. "Fair play first" was our motto.
I've seen cheating in casual rounds and won't hesitate to point it out.
I haven't seen cheating in sanctioned events though that is only an open division perspective.

I didn't vote in the poll. The question is misleading.

 

[F.Luke]

Missed the edit window:

I've witnessed ONE instance of cheating in a sanctioned event.
Its a long story that would get this thread landfilled.

 

[BrotherDave]

If I was worried about receiving a just payout I wouldn't be playing a self-officiated sport, lol.

 

[iacas]

I answered with the assumption that using the word "cheat" means intentionally violating the rules for a competitive advantage.

Right.

If you throw out of bounds and get a penalty, that's violating the rules, but it's not cheating.

And you can cheat out of ignorance. The "intent" there is not owning up to the responsibility to know the rules.

If you're not playing strictly by the book, to the letter, than you are cheating in some form or another.

That's another way to put it that avoids having to wedge "intent" into the "ignorant" like I tried to do just above.

Throw OB, take your penalty: that's by the book.
Throw OB, don't know it, don't take the penalty: cheating (out of ignorance).
Throw OB, claim it wasn't OB, don't take the penalty: bad cheating.

Im no snitch shoplifting is a victimless crime.

I can only hope that you're joking… ?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Missed the edit window:

I've witnessed ONE instance of cheating in a sanctioned event.
Its a long story that would get this thread landfilled.

A single isolated incidence?
Sounds like a f.luke occurrence.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

^ I like it.

 

[lyleoross]

Are we really debating cheating? If it's a rule and you break it and you know it you cheated. If you didn't know, stuff happens. If you find out later, see Cat and Paul for the correct procedure.

If you convince yourself it's okay because you didn't really see where your foot was, you cheated. The manual reads that you are supposed to know the rules and follow them. No where does say, don't look, then you have culpable deniability.

The law makes room for the seriousness of the crime. So do our rules. But the law doesn't say a crime isn't a crime because you didn't know. Unless of course you're rich or your daddy is rich.

 

[F.Luke]

A single isolated incidence?
Sounds like a f.luke occurrence.

Once in a blue "moon," if you will...

 

[filobedo]

More casuals cheat not realizing it because they have learned to play from others who either misinterpret or do not know the rules. I cannot ever remember playing with anyone that has intentionally cheated in a sanctioned tournament. 30 seconds to throw and three minutes to look for a lost disc is the most common I have witnessed.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

30 seconds to throw and three minutes to look for a lost disc is the most common I have witnessed.

These two examples are less "cheating" and more stretching the rules for speed of play.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I play my own game and not worry about anyone else.

So you admit to failing to self police the sport? OK.

Cheaters only cheat themselves. And when I keep score I write whatever you tell me. So I think you threw 4 but you say 3, I write 3 and move on.

No, they cheat the rest of the division. You're basically an accomplice to the cheater by recording his/her score incorrectly.

I believe in karma and the cheater will get cheated.

Where is the "belief of karma" detailed in the rule book?

 

[simpletwist]

So you admit to failing to self police the sport? OK.

No, they cheat the rest of the division. You're basically an accomplice to the cheater by recording his/her score incorrectly.



Where is the "belief of karma" detailed in the rule book?

First off I rarely play PDGA sanctioned events. Secondly I'm not a rules nazi. Third if you have to cheat to beat me you're not much competition. And if that makes me an accomplice, guilty as charged.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

First off I rarely play PDGA sanctioned events. Secondly I'm not a rules nazi. Third if you have to cheat to beat me you're not much competition. And if that makes me an accomplice, guilty as charged.

Sorry if I come off a little Nazi-ish with rules......... a few specific circumstances here in the Albany area have prompted me to do so. Call it damage control from a former TD that put quite a dent in the local reputation when it was just getting started.

I read about shady situations that go down all over the country and don't want that type of reputation to EVER infiltrate our club.

I don't see myself being cool with a guy shaving strokes and taking my $5-10 at a local league every week. Been running a league for 8 years and if I looked the other way because he's my BFF, nobody would come play.


It's called integrity. And pride for what we have accomplished here over the past 10 years. We have it by the boatload.

 

[simpletwist]

Sorry if I come off a little Nazi-ish with rules......... a few specific circumstances here in the Albany area have prompted me to do so. Call it damage control from a former TD that put quite a dent in the local reputation when it was just getting started.

I read about shady situations that go down all over the country and don't want that type of reputation to EVER infiltrate our club.

I don't see myself being cool with a guy shaving strokes and taking my $5-10 at a local league every week. Been running a league for 8 years and if I looked the other way because he's my BFF, nobody would come play.


It's called integrity. And pride for what we have accomplished here over the past 10 years. We have it by the boatload.

I get the integrity part. And hold myself to the rules. I honestly haven't come across many cheaters. One guy I know faults on every putt. That was 5 or 6 years ago. I called him on it and he wanted to argue the point. I was there to play and enjoy the day. As it turned out I beat him by stroke to finish first. I still play that tournament and he still faults every time. And he hasn't beaten me yet. He isn't a bad guy and it isn't my life's work. If he needs that edge i can live with it.

 

[Reniger]

I get the integrity part. And hold myself to the rules. I honestly haven't come across many cheaters. One guy I know faults on every putt. That was 5 or 6 years ago. I called him on it and he wanted to argue the point. I was there to play and enjoy the day. As it turned out I beat him by stroke to finish first. I still play that tournament and he still faults every time. And he hasn't beaten me yet. He isn't a bad guy and it isn't my life's work. If he needs that edge i can live with it.

That's a rough one. If you're taking 1st and he's only one stroke off from you, that means 3rd through the bottom of your division are potentially getting screwed. I would be pretty upset if I lost out on cash from someone possibly shaving stokes by continually foot faulting. The kid who set me off was DFL, so I didn't care too much. But, if he'd knocked me out of some cash, I would've gone straight to the PDGA after that director.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I wonder about gender differences in cheating and the attitudes toward it. I'll explain. I was at a tournament in my area 3 years ago and watched a group of INT Women tee off. Three of them went out of bounds. Each one of them threw from out of bounds. This was in plain sight of the TD and many other players. I asked the TD about it later and his response was that because those were the only women in the tournament, it didn't matter. I.e., they were only playing each other so if they let each other cheat, he didn't care.

Then, recently, I talked to a woman who plays locally. She stopped playing in tournaments because, in her words, "all the women cheat" and she was sick of it. We discussed the OB incident I described and she also stated that the women that she has played with have all underreported scores in every tournament that she has been in, and that the underreporting wasn't even close, like multiple strokes per hole, no penalty strokes and throwing from OB as if it didn't exist.

Finally, in a tournament I ran back in August, only one female player showed up. She was about 12 years old. I placed her in a group of Adv. Masters that I knew well (and who were all parents) and after the round, one of the men told me that the girl, who was the only person in her division, constantly underreported her scores. On one particular hole, he stated that she claimed to have shot a 4 (a 550', wooded hole listed as a par 4) in which he had counted 8 throws. I have toyed with the idea that in any of my tournaments I will have a marshall/scorekeeper accompany the women's groups.