What would your call be on this. This past weekend at a tourney we had a disc skip up on a retaining wall an lean on a fence, the disc is touching the retaining wall which is on the inside side of the defined sidewalk line. So is the retaining wall part of the sidewalk or part of the fairway. There was another hole people were playing these concrete slabs with picnic tables on them safe cause there were technically inside the defined sidewalk path but we're right flush with the sidewalk. What is your call?
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what would be your call on this.
- Thread starter GODSGIFT
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jrawk
* Ace Member *
i'm having trouble visualizing the retaining wall, fence, and sidewalk line. together.
but basically, if the sidewalk line defines where OB begins, and the wall & fence are on the inbounds side of the line, then the disc is in bounds.
to be OB, the disc has to be completely surounded by OB.
but basically, if the sidewalk line defines where OB begins, and the wall & fence are on the inbounds side of the line, then the disc is in bounds.
to be OB, the disc has to be completely surounded by OB.
How high is the retaining wall?
What was the actual defined OB line? Just the sidewalk?
It is almost flush with the sidewalk. I made my ruling from other people playing from the slabss of cement inside the sidewalk on one hole. Wouldn't it make sense to play this piece of concrete inbounds. The pdga said it's the tds job to clearly mark ob an if there is any doubt the call goes to the players benefit.
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This. The disc has to be completely surrounded by OB to be considered OB.
This is the right question to ask in order to get an answer. This really isn't a matter of interpretation of rules, it's a matter of the boundaries being clearly identified by the TD/designer. Unless the TD or designer reads the thread and posts a response, I doubt we're going to get resolution on this here.
The ob line just said sidewalk. People brought up what defines a sidewalk cuz this wall is technically split from the sidewalk, but some people looked at it as it's on concrete so it's ob. Wouldn't the call goto benefit the players for the ob not being clearly marked?
Like Jrawk said, completley surrounded. So I would say it is in bounds. In order for it to be OB, it would have to be on top of the retaining wall touching all sidewalk.
But what if it was on top of the retaining wall with a third of the disc over hanging above the grass? Hmmm.....
But what if it was on top of the retaining wall with a third of the disc over hanging above the grass? Hmmm.....
BigGAC1
Par Member
I don't think I'm visualizing what you're describing very well. But basically the edge of the sidewalk essentially defines an infinite plane extending vertically that if any part of the disc penetrates the plane then it is still inbounds, even if it has come to rest above the ground (excluding the 6ft rule - I don't know if that is still in play or not).
It appears to me that the bone of contention is whether or not the concrete of the wall is an extension of the concrete of the sidewalk proper. Only the TD can properly address that question.
If the TD wasn't readily available for the group, the correct thing to do would be for the player to play provisionals from each potential lie (the lie if the disc is OB and the lie if the disc is inbounds) and let the TD determine which set of provisionals fits the correct interpretation of the OB line.
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
In bounds.
I agree with everyone else saying the disc must be completely surrounded by OB.
I agree with everyone else saying the disc must be completely surrounded by OB.
chosenmatrix
Par Member
Send disc pics Bro! If it's the tournament I am thinking of, and the wall is as in bounds as those picnic table slabs on 18, then you should be good!:thmbup:
I don't know how to post pics from my phone onto here. An yea you can call me a newer td as I was co td of the event, this is a once in a lifetime landing spot. An I was just curious what others define sidewalk as or if all concrete structure/wall is part of the sidewalk.
Wait, you're one of the TDs of the event? Just make the damn call and go with it. Here's the only line from the rule book that's really applicable, from 805.01 D: "The decision of the Director shall be final." And that goes perfectly with the best piece of advice I ever got as a TD: "Don't be wishy-washy".
There are no universal rules on how to determine OB lines. For all we know, this structure you're dealing with is unique amongst all courses all over the world. There may not be another structure like it on which such a ruling would have been needed.
The ruling is whatever YOU want to make it for your tournament. So do what you think is best and if players disagree, tough nuts.
I was on the card that this happened on. Neato.
Here are the facts of the situation:
First off. The disc was 100% surrounded by concrete.
Second. We took pictures of the lie and played the shot both ways. (inbounds/out of bounds)
Third. The retaining wall and sidewalk were flush surfaces. The fence that the disc was leaning against was bolted to the same flush surface. If you unbolted the fence and removed it, it would not be obvious that the side walk and the retaining wall were two separate things.
So, those are the facts.
Here's my opinion based on seeing it first hand:
First. It was crazy and I don't think I'll ever see anything like it again. The wind was blowing steady 25 which pinned the disc against the fence vertically and it just leaned there when it came to rest.
Second. The OB was on or across sidewalk. There was no mention of retaining wall. But, my interpretation, personally, was on or across concrete. And again, most people would have considered this retaining wall part of the side walk anyway.
Having TD tournaments in the past, I would have ruled it OB and it would have been and easy call to make.
Here are the facts of the situation:
First off. The disc was 100% surrounded by concrete.
Second. We took pictures of the lie and played the shot both ways. (inbounds/out of bounds)
Third. The retaining wall and sidewalk were flush surfaces. The fence that the disc was leaning against was bolted to the same flush surface. If you unbolted the fence and removed it, it would not be obvious that the side walk and the retaining wall were two separate things.
So, those are the facts.
Here's my opinion based on seeing it first hand:
First. It was crazy and I don't think I'll ever see anything like it again. The wind was blowing steady 25 which pinned the disc against the fence vertically and it just leaned there when it came to rest.
Second. The OB was on or across sidewalk. There was no mention of retaining wall. But, my interpretation, personally, was on or across concrete. And again, most people would have considered this retaining wall part of the side walk anyway.
Having TD tournaments in the past, I would have ruled it OB and it would have been and easy call to make.
It is possible even for experienced, meticulous, excellent TDs to leave a gap in the O.B. definitions.
With details they may not have considered, throws they may not have imagined, a failure to put down on paper exactly what they're thinking, and even typographical errors, there are a lot of ways to screw up.
When in doubt, take a provisional.
And hope that, if the TD's good, he'll refine the rules for the next event.
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