~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Ok I used some MS Paint skills to try to clear this up for myself...

I can feel what you're saying with my knee. I don't do that when pumping back and forth in your hammer drill, but as soon as I anticipate a throw then yes I do get that knee "around" and kind of out of the power before I throw.

So you rock back and forth "diagonally" relative to the teepad, but really that is back and forth pretty much exactly relative to your feet. Is that correct?

Then when you shift your weight for the throw, are you maintaining that diagonal momentum even though the target is maybe 20-30 degrees behind you? Or do you shift your momentum down the target line and move your front foot laterally toward the target? If you maintain the original diagonal momentum line like vector A, then your feet become farther apart and more offset because of that?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes the rocking back and forth is straight relative to the stance so it's diagonal to the target. It is the diagonal shift that allows the lower arm to point left and feels left of the target like BW is talking about. You can see my arm lined up on that diagonal shift.

Inside Swing Drill - The stagger or closed or diagonal stance actually happens from the rear leg, not the front leg! So when you are totally balanced on the front leg, the rear side is out of the way. The more you diagonally stagger the rear foot back the more space you have, but there is a point of diminishing leverage you can make back to the front side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=385s

Pay particular attention from 1-3 min and note how the center of gravity shifts diagonally from the rear foot forward then spirals from bracing on the front side and continues diagonal ending up stacked up on front foot. That spiral is where the magic happens to release the swing straight. Tighter spiral exponentially increases arm speed. Most Ams don't have that spiral though, it's just linear and putting on the brakes or flying past.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for going through all this. I've thrown SO many shots, I know this has to click in my brain first, I'm too consistent throw to throw with whatever form I choose to do that I can't just make it happen on the fly. So I have a few more things to make sure I'm on the right page conceptually. This is hopefully just like a "yeah that's what I said", but basically if the more I can explain what I think is happening and not be wrong still, then that is good.

That Clement video is excellent, you posted it last week in another thread and it really made me realize that I feel that shift more correctly moving right to left as in baseball/golf/FH, but did not have near that balance left to right. I started doing lots of two handed swings, switch hitting type of stuff, to get way more centered and over my right leg to feel my shoulders come through and that heel "catch" and recoil. I know my timing to front leg was off, your hammer drill helped there, but I understand that little catch/recoil and why those angles happen in that video.

So, I know you said in that Clement video how the weight shifts diagonally. I understand all of that and the spiral, I can feel it. But I just want to be clear...this is all for a golf shot that is intended to be released parallel down the line, relative to his feet/stance. Correct? So the "diagonal" is still within his feet, it's not the same overall diagonal stance as in disc golf where we are closed.

Comparatively is this like how in my RH baseball swing I stride directly toward the pitcher, yet my hitting zone is left centre...I pull like 30 degrees from the foul line? So my stride is lateral, my release is closed/behind me, but within my stride I have that little diagonal shift of rear toes to front heel, recoil, spiral, etc. To me it feels straight to pitcher and the ball ends up in left field.

So my disc golf throw should feel straight between my feet, which is angled across the teepad, and if I release correctly it will be down the aim line like how I pull a line drive? In your mind when you line up a shot are you thinking about your weight shift vector, which would be A in my above picture, or the intended throw line vector B to hit...or have you just thrown so many shots that you know those two things work harmoniously?

In X-step, for example in your Lizotte can video around 3:30 you do the ladder steps down the hallway. The feet always cross over the same amount. Again to be clear...these steps would always take you along vector A continually even when you intend to aim down the target straight down the teepad?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. So, I know you said in that Clement video how the weight shifts diagonally. I understand all of that and the spiral, I can feel it. But I just want to be clear...this is all for a golf shot that is intended to be released parallel down the line, relative to his feet/stance. Correct? So the "diagonal" is still within his feet, it's not the same overall diagonal stance as in disc golf where we are closed.

2. Comparatively is this like how in my RH baseball swing I stride directly toward the pitcher, yet my hitting zone is left centre...I pull like 30 degrees from the foul line? So my stride is lateral, my release is closed/behind me, but within my stride I have that little diagonal shift of rear toes to front heel, recoil, spiral, etc. To me it feels straight to pitcher and the ball ends up in left field.

3. So my disc golf throw should feel straight between my feet, which is angled across the teepad, and if I release correctly it will be down the aim line like how I pull a line drive? In your mind when you line up a shot are you thinking about your weight shift vector, which would be A in my above picture, or the intended throw line vector B to hit...or have you just thrown so many shots that you know those two things work harmoniously?

4. In X-step, for example in your Lizotte can video around 3:30 you do the ladder steps down the hallway. The feet always cross over the same amount. Again to be clear...these steps would always take you along vector A continually even when you intend to aim down the target straight down the teepad?

1. Yep.

2. Yep.

3. Yep. Lol, right I don't really think about much anymore, I'm just sending the disc to it's home/apex. I basically feel like I'm using the battering ram to the apex and the way I move my weight around slings it there. When I notice I'm not throwing right, throwing too early, I'll just think about crushing the can then swinging or the name of a drill. If I'm not throwing far enough, I make sure I look completely away from the apex at top of backswing so the whole body can turn further back without any restriction or strain, effortless/free wheeling backswing, and turn the rear foot back further. I still think your rear foot is turned like 45 degree or so too targetward, so you are perpendicular instead of like 45 degree further back. Open up the backswing but move back and load up more inside the rear foot diagonally/rotationally.

4. Yes the steps would be down the vector. It changes on the last step because you aren't continuing the motion in one direction and you turn further back to catch yourself like you want to reverse direction. The momentum of the body turning back on the rear leg and striding into the plant pulls your center of gravity diagonally leftward. So the rear foot everts diagonally rightward when it leaves the ground from that internal torque and disc goes straight like being shot through the baseball pitching machine.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, that makes sense.

I've been offsetting my stance and pretty much backswinging along with weight shift forward on B. That's probably why I'm always behind my plant heel, and I drift to the left/diagonal in the way since that's kind of where my body wants to go, and also why my back foot isn't turned far enough back in the setup.

I'm happy though that I hit those standstill distances today with these crossing momentum lines. Means it should get easier.

When I realize I don't understand the most basic things like what direction to stride relative to the throw...I feel like I should even send a video of how I walk to make sure I do it right. I kick lots of rocks when I hike. Only kind of joking.

Really though I think a lot of the issue is I do lots of gravity sports where upper body/lower body separation is important. For quickness, torque for "bringing it back" to straight, and tricks. It's a very different upper body/lower body separation than in these movements, these don't feel separated at all in comparison. Look up frontside boardslide and you'll see what I mean for typical separation.

 

[slowplastic]

It's super windy out, and I kind of want to be smarter about this rather than throwing hundreds of shots and then finding out later what was wrong.

I know this is vertical video, but it's the best angle. This is one of those back massagers so it doesn't have weight on the end like a hammer, but it's way more effective for me than a towel and I'm not afraid of it coming out of my hand.

I can really feel that staying in line with my stance makes it easy back and forth, and my back foot comes up off the ground in follow through way more than before since I'm not getting in my own way. I can see my forearm is very closed relative to "straight" aim when in elbow forward position, and it just happens.

Is my head drooping forward? Is that rear arm/elbow position ok or should I try to be getting it forward of my torso/rear hip like McBeth? What else am I doing wrong?

https://vimeo.com/289939384

https://vimeo.com/289939384^^^^^^REMOVE^^^^^TO LINK TO BIGGER VIDEO

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely looking better. Your grip looks really awkward and weak on the curved stick and gripping the wrong end and turned 90 degrees sideways the wrong way off plane. You want something flat to grip, not curved or the curve(all the weight) needs to be on the same horizontal plane, so your thumb can leverage the back of the handle on plane with the tip/head.

With the hammer swing indoor(not tossing it/letting go)you shouldn't be swinging hard enough to ever feel like it would come out of your hand. All you need to feel is a little pop with a long slow swing. Should be 100% safe indoor with slow speed. I don't recommend trying to whip anything indoor near full speed except the Magnus Cup. Instead of the hammer you can use a plain ole stick or something like the flexbar I use in Don't Spill the Beverage. The flexbar gives you a little spring action which I like, almost like warping the disc.

Your head looks fine, it's your balance/stance that's off.

Looks like your stance isn't diagonal enough and front foot is turned inward too much, turn it open more, there isn't enough momentum here to need to catch that closed. You should be landing neutral on the front leg, hang the foot from the hip and plant it/land. Your balance is tipping over a little instead of shifting centered over diagonally more due to not be staggered diagonally enough.

Your rear arm does a weird move and gets in the way in the backswing or changes your balance or something and looks like it is slowing you down in the forward swing to compensate that off balance condition.

 

[sidewinder22]

Really though I think a lot of the issue is I do lots of gravity sports where upper body/lower body separation is important. For quickness, torque for "bringing it back" to straight, and tricks. It's a very different upper body/lower body separation than in these movements, these don't feel separated at all in comparison. Look up frontside boardslide and you'll see what I mean for typical separation.

This is like the Hershyzer.

 

[slowplastic]

Looks like your stance isn't diagonal enough and front foot is turned inward too much, turn it open more, there isn't enough momentum here to need to catch that closed. You should be landing neutral on the front leg, hang the foot from the hip and plant it/land. Your balance is tipping over a little instead of shifting centered over diagonally more due to not be staggered diagonally enough.

Your rear arm does a weird move and gets in the way in the backswing or changes your balance or something and looks like it is slowing you down in the forward swing to compensate that off balance condition.

Ok this feels good. I feel so much more neutral. Before I was shifting directly targetward and trying to close my foot relative to that line...if I'm diagonal, moving diagonal, and land neutral it appears closed from the side or back view, and I guess more importantly I'm just not pre-opening or doing anything weird or restrictive. It just feels simpler, and even open stanced relative to my perspective. With better balance I'll just try to do a Jarvis arm or something really basic, it feels easier now I think. The better the balance the simpler it all is. I can also see how the forearm seems back/closed relative to the target...but really at this point without throwing I'm just feeling the momentum direction and the arm feels straight relative to that. This does feel way simpler though and my back leg feels way more free after it releases from the ground.

This is like the Hershyzer.

Haha yeah, but in a commit or die sort of way especially when your feet are strapped in like on a snowboard. Not enough Hershyzer = face meets rail. Too much Hershyzer means heel edge catch, then you blindly backwards superman and all you can think is "I hope I'm going fast enough that I clear the rail and land way down on the snow on my back...".

Lots of counterrotation during tricks, pre-wind, all sorts of things though that had me way more loose than the "X-factor separation" actually is where you need to try to resist.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok this feels good. I feel so much more neutral. Before I was shifting directly targetward and trying to close my foot relative to that line...if I'm diagonal, moving diagonal, and land neutral it appears closed from the side or back view, and I guess more importantly I'm just not pre-opening or doing anything weird or restrictive. It just feels simpler, and even open stanced relative to my perspective. With better balance I'll just try to do a Jarvis arm or something really basic, it feels easier now I think. The better the balance the simpler it all is. I can also see how the forearm seems back/closed relative to the target...but really at this point without throwing I'm just feeling the momentum direction and the arm feels straight relative to that. This does feel way simpler though and my back leg feels way more free after it releases from the ground.


Haha yeah, but in a commit or die sort of way especially when your feet are strapped in like on a snowboard. Not enough Hershyzer = face meets rail. Too much Hershyzer means heel edge catch, then you blindly backwards superman and all you can think is "I hope I'm going fast enough that I clear the rail and land way down on the snow on my back...".

Lots of counterrotation during tricks, pre-wind, all sorts of things though that had me way more loose than the "X-factor separation" actually is where you need to try to resist.

YES!!! This is how you can Kick the Plant "open" and still feel "from behind you" or "Crush the Can"!!! It's DIAGONAL STANCE!!! The front leg accelerates/kicks dynamically neutral to the pelvis/lower spine like Lizotte.

 

[charmees]

I have been reading your and billyjackos topic and I think you are on to something, but can't understand it fully after reading everything multiple times.

Me too, I am moving straight to target, bracing and then the disc launches, but I understand from you that I have to add somekind of diagonal dimension to my throw? Not sure if it is bracing diagonally, or moving diagonally or similar. Also I think it was somehow related to getting your body and hand out from discs way?


Can you try to explain the feeling or movement you have discovered in simpler words?

 

[slowplastic]

Can you try to explain the feeling or movement you have discovered in simpler words?

I haven't been able to throw with it yet, right now 30+MPH wind so we'll see if I get out. But from the conversations and how it feels this is my simplification:

Think of other sports like golf or baseball. Stance is straight/parallel. You shift your weight back foot to front foot, it's lateral. In golf this happens to be lateral directly toward the target, but you have two hands on the club and hit the ball somewhere between front foot and middle of stance...basically in an orientation that gets it to go "straight".

In baseball you generally stride straight toward the pitcher. The problem is the ball can be "anywhere" and you react, so it gets hit in a variety of directions. But, in general, if a batter hits to their "power zone" that's like 30 degrees off of centre, behind them/closed. So they stride "straight" at the pitcher but pull the ball behind them naturally.

So in disc golf we are so used to be "closed" to the target. Instead think that you are standing straight, but just turn your body so the disc will be released behind you like a hitter's power zone. Set up offset/closed/diagonal. Your feet will be kind of neutral/open from your own perspective, but to someone looking at you from off the teepad it looks like your front foot is perpendicular to the target and your back foot is open backwards. To you it's just a natural stance. You then just shift back foot to front foot in a straight line relative to your stance, pull the disc on the same straight line, and when it releases it does the "grip lock behind you" to the target...or rather it should naturally release toward the target like 20-30 degrees behind your weight shift.

So from someone else's perspective looking at you, your front foot landed "closed", and the disc was coming to your right pec "45 degrees closed of the target" because you were set up and shifting in a different direction. Then the disc should redirect at release/pivot and hopefully rocket to the target.

We'll see how it goes, but just swinging an object indoors and from SW finally saying I'm getting it, this should be way more correct.

Edit: If you look at that drill of me swinging indoors above, I'm set up and shifting at the bikes on the wall, but hoping that a disc would release through the glass door around where the blinds are.

 

[Lumberjack504]

I haven't been able to throw with it yet, right now 30+MPH wind so we'll see if I get out. But from the conversations and how it feels this is my simplification:

Think of other sports like golf or baseball. Stance is straight/parallel. You shift your weight back foot to front foot, it's lateral. In golf this happens to be lateral directly toward the target, but you have two hands on the club and hit the ball somewhere between front foot and middle of stance...basically in an orientation that gets it to go "straight".

In baseball you generally stride straight toward the pitcher. The problem is the ball can be "anywhere" and you react, so it gets hit in a variety of directions. But, in general, if a batter hits to their "power zone" that's like 30 degrees off of centre, behind them/closed. So they stride "straight" at the pitcher but pull the ball behind them naturally.

So in disc golf we are so used to be "closed" to the target. Instead think that you are standing straight, but just turn your body so the disc will be released behind you like a hitter's power zone. Set up offset/closed/diagonal. Your feet will be kind of neutral/open from your own perspective, but to someone looking at you from off the teepad it looks like your front foot is perpendicular to the target and your back foot is open backwards. To you it's just a natural stance. You then just shift back foot to front foot in a straight line relative to your stance, pull the disc on the same straight line, and when it releases it does the "grip lock behind you" to the target...or rather it should naturally release toward the target like 20-30 degrees behind your weight shift.

So from someone else's perspective looking at you, your front foot landed "closed", and the disc was coming to your right pec "45 degrees closed of the target" because you were set up and shifting in a different direction. Then the disc should redirect at release/pivot and hopefully rocket to the target.

We'll see how it goes, but just swinging an object indoors and from SW finally saying I'm getting it, this should be way more correct.

Edit: If you look at that drill of me swinging indoors above, I'm set up and shifting at the bikes on the wall, but hoping that a disc would release through the glass door around where the blinds are.

Bolded part made a lightbulb go off. Seems so simple and fundamental when presented as you did. Seems like it goes hand-in-hand with what Bradley's been talking about with trying to move the forearm left out of the power zone. Thanks dudes.

 

[RFrance]

Ok I used some MS Paint skills to try to clear this up for myself...

I can feel what you're saying with my knee. I don't do that when pumping back and forth in your hammer drill, but as soon as I anticipate a throw then yes I do get that knee "around" and kind of out of the power before I throw.

So you rock back and forth "diagonally" relative to the teepad, but really that is back and forth pretty much exactly relative to your feet. Is that correct?

Then when you shift your weight for the throw, are you maintaining that diagonal momentum even though the target is maybe 20-30 degrees behind you? Or do you shift your momentum down the target line and move your front foot laterally toward the target? If you maintain the original diagonal momentum line like vector A, then your feet become farther apart and more offset because of that?

Slowplastic this is a keen question about the diagonal that I know that I was missing. I was swinging along the "B" line. Tied together with BW's Arc and the hit at 45 degrees makes a lot of sense. I found out in practice today that I still need to slow down to get the disc to make the longer arc without getting an early release. More work to go but its nice to have a better understanding.

 

[slowplastic]

This is definitely the right direction. Seems so simple, but it's really hard to commit to that angle! Now that I'm home and can see the footage properly, I can tell that when I go for the throw I don't commit to getting my body/shoulder/head all the way to the front foot. It seems I stride on the same diagonal stance angle, but I'm not fully committing to getting my whole body over there. Does that seem right from this video?

Comparatively in this post with KJ, you can see how his body is so stacked over the front foot.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3351903&postcount=369

It was super windy and swirling, anywhere from 15-30MPH I really don't know but there was a wind warning out and it scared me enough to not park by trees. So it was really hard to tell what every shot was doing, but I definitely got several standstill fairways in the 350-360' range on tight low lines, and put a Teebird on a pure sweep hyzer to 370-380 with an X-step. So it still went well.

So is my setup balance and angle ok? Is my pump the right direction? Basically what I see is I lift my front foot a bit early and I don't get my body all the way over my plant...that's likely why I'm not going toe-heel on the plant? This was a slight early release but the video was a good angle.

https://vimeo.com/290094270

 

[slowplastic]

Bolded part made a lightbulb go off. Seems so simple and fundamental when presented as you did. Seems like it goes hand-in-hand with what Bradley's been talking about with trying to move the forearm left out of the power zone. Thanks dudes.

I'm not great at making new drills or things like that, but simplifying and presenting info is what I can bring...when I finally get this figured out I hope to try to describe the biggest changes and feelings or misconceptions along the way. As someone who had to break through every. single. step.

 

[charmees]

When looking at that picture, do I understand correctly, that the weight shift should be diagonal to the target, so I don't shift weight towards target, but rather 20 degrees to the left, but the disc will be released through my body directly towards the target along the line A, effectively meaning that I am throwing a little bit behind myself and rather keeping disc longer in hand or griplocking longer?

 

[deyo7]

I haven't been able to throw with it yet, right now 30+MPH wind so we'll see if I get out. But from the conversations and how it feels this is my simplification:

Think of other sports like golf or baseball. Stance is straight/parallel. You shift your weight back foot to front foot, it's lateral. In golf this happens to be lateral directly toward the target, but you have two hands on the club and hit the ball somewhere between front foot and middle of stance...basically in an orientation that gets it to go "straight".

In baseball you generally stride straight toward the pitcher. The problem is the ball can be "anywhere" and you react, so it gets hit in a variety of directions. But, in general, if a batter hits to their "power zone" that's like 30 degrees off of centre, behind them/closed. So they stride "straight" at the pitcher but pull the ball behind them naturally.

So in disc golf we are so used to be "closed" to the target. Instead think that you are standing straight, but just turn your body so the disc will be released behind you like a hitter's power zone. Set up offset/closed/diagonal. Your feet will be kind of neutral/open from your own perspective, but to someone looking at you from off the teepad it looks like your front foot is perpendicular to the target and your back foot is open backwards. To you it's just a natural stance. You then just shift back foot to front foot in a straight line relative to your stance, pull the disc on the same straight line, and when it releases it does the "grip lock behind you" to the target...or rather it should naturally release toward the target like 20-30 degrees behind your weight shift.

So from someone else's perspective looking at you, your front foot landed "closed", and the disc was coming to your right pec "45 degrees closed of the target" because you were set up and shifting in a different direction. Then the disc should redirect at release/pivot and hopefully rocket to the target.

We'll see how it goes, but just swinging an object indoors and from SW finally saying I'm getting it, this should be way more correct.

Edit: If you look at that drill of me swinging indoors above, I'm set up and shifting at the bikes on the wall, but hoping that a disc would release through the glass door around where the blinds are.

Bolded part made a lightbulb go off. Seems so simple and fundamental when presented as you did. Seems like it goes hand-in-hand with what Bradley's been talking about with trying to move the forearm left out of the power zone. Thanks dudes.

This last few pages re: "diagonal shift" discussion is something good. And, yes(!), absolutely fantastic explanation and simplification, slowplastic! Good work out of you guys

 

[slowplastic]

When looking at that picture, do I understand correctly, that the weight shift should be diagonal to the target, so I don't shift weight towards target, but rather 20 degrees to the left, but the disc will be released through my body directly towards the target along the line A, effectively meaning that I am throwing a little bit behind myself and rather keeping disc longer in hand or griplocking longer?

Yes that's right...and importantly you are shifting "straight" relative to your stance so everything is centered from your perspective.

From trying it out yesterday the hardest part is the mental aspect of setting up, shifting, and aiming way off line and letting it happen. Seems best to be somewhere open without expectations so you don't try to aim or release weird, just let your body do what works and commit to it. I think that's why I had one or two X step throws go really well because the momentum made me get all the way forward.

 

[billyjacko]

Yeah, this all started to make sense to me with BW saying aim left, purposely girp lock. It's one of those things you watch Simon and Paul do all the time, but looks impossible to actually do. I'm finally figuring out how to get full leverage without hugging myself because of this. It seemed like I could only either get full leverage and hug myself, or get the disc deep into the pocket. Now I'm figuring out both. Let alone the strides in getting my backswing sequence worked out. Can't wait till my back is 100% to start ripping some.