Banzai's Battle with Bracing

[sddabrow]

Keep up the great work Banzai! As another new player to the game, throwing around 300', your posts and interactions with SW22 are amazing to read. Especially since I can't get out that often to get videos / practice, this continues to help me grow.

Keep it up and then you can share all your secrets when you hit 400'

Cheers guys!

 

[slowplastic]

I'm reluctant to post this because there are some issues with it (baseball-wise too), but it falls into one of those more extreme drills that you can do just to feel something new, then try to get something kind of similar in your disc golf swing.

Watch around 3:05 in this video, as well as during some of the swings earlier in the video you can see how the rear hip comes forward and impacts/recoils back at the hit point. There are issues especially that the swing plane is upwards (we do not want to sky the disc!), the hips and shoulders go at the same time rather than separation happening in this drill, and the movement is directly forward, rather than at the target (disc golf target) through a closed position. But, it can show you how to throw your hips forward (way too aggressively) and end up in a cleared and balanced position, rather than jamming up. If this causes more issues than helps, then simply ignore it.

 

[sidewinder22]

There are issues especially that the swing plane is upwards (we do not want to sky the disc!),

Throwing anything for distance should be thrown upward, but nose down. Pretty much the opposite of what everyone here tries to do...they swing down and nose up.

 

[slowplastic]

Throwing anything for distance should be thrown upward, but nose down. Pretty much the opposite of what everyone here tries to do...they swing down and nose up.

True point. I'm also a line drive rather than home run hitter too...

 

[banzai7]

Width of stance and speed, vary things. My feet are directly under my shoulders, narrow stance makes it almost impossible to jam anything. You are also confusing weightshift and torque. The rear foot driving/torquing from the ground in a planted wide stance will jam up your lower back. Your rear knee being extended means your torque is spent. Watch any top thrower and the rear knee remains bent/torqued during the swing even when there is no weight on the rear foot.

Yeah, I must be confusing weightshift and the push off the rear foot.

Just so I can get clear: let's define weight shift as simply the movement of weight from the rear foot to the front foot. (In an X-step this goes from 100% rear/0% front to 0% rear / 100% front. In a standstill throw it may not be quite 100% but it'll be close. And in the dinglearm and other drills, it's not quite as much either.

Let's define driving the hips as the linear shift of the hips in the direction of the target that gets your front femur locked into the hip joint and hence your momentum braced behind the inside of your plant leg. This is like 1-2" inches of shift, but it is crucial.

Let's define rear leg push as the force in the direction of your target generated by pushing of the instep/ball of the rear foot. This can be a pretty powerful motion, as there is a lot of stored energy here (if you are braced against the rear leg in the backswing) that can be transferred upwards leading to an explosion of power into the disc. (I think this is what SW22 is calling "torque".)

Let's define clearing the hips to be the clockwise (RHBH) external rotation of the pelvis from in-line to the target to faced up to the target that happens naturally as a consequence of proper bracing / pivot /follow-through.

Finally, let's define lag to be the differential between the lower body rotation and the upper body rotation. The more rotated your lower body is while your upper body is still in the backswing, the more "lag".

Okay, so I want to know how all these concepts work together in a proper throw. The way I'm currently conceptualizing it: is that basically the rear leg push does everything else. It causes the weightshift and the drive of the hips simultaneously, which puts you into a braced position. If you have just the right amount of lag, this force from the rear leg push travels up the brace until your hips clear and the momentum syncs up with the shoulder swing at the right time to explode onto the disc.

But a lot of things I've read, and seen on video, etc. seem to suggest that the weightshift and rear leg push are somewhat independent of one another. Almost as if an early weightshift starts the throw and sets you up for a powerful rear leg push and simultaneous drive of the hips. If a rear leg push into the weightshift means your torque/power is already "spent" then it seems like it'd need to be delayed.

Of course, there must be some level of push into the weightshift or else it wouldn't happen (right?). And obviously if 100% of your weight has already shifted, then your rear foot is effectively off the ground and you've got nothing left for the rear leg to push.

So how should I be thinking about this?

 

[banzai7]

Keep up the great work Banzai! As another new player to the game, throwing around 300', your posts and interactions with SW22 are amazing to read. Especially since I can't get out that often to get videos / practice, this continues to help me grow.

Keep it up and then you can share all your secrets when you hit 400'

Cheers guys!

Thanks for the vote of confidence! My wife was just looking at all the videos of me in this thread and she was in tears laughing at me. Kinda embarrassing, but hey you gotta do what you gotta do.

400' drives every time, maxing out at 425+; that'd be great.

 

[sddabrow]

Thanks for the vote of confidence! My wife was just looking at all the videos of me in this thread and she was in tears laughing at me. Kinda embarrassing, but hey you gotta do what you gotta do.

400' drives every time, maxing out at 425+; that'd be great.

Haha my wife makes fun of me every time I ask her to video tape me. They just don't get it!

 

[banzai7]

I'm reluctant to post this because there are some issues with it (baseball-wise too), but it falls into one of those more extreme drills that you can do just to feel something new, then try to get something kind of similar in your disc golf swing.

Watch around 3:05 in this video, as well as during some of the swings earlier in the video you can see how the rear hip comes forward and impacts/recoils back at the hit point. There are issues especially that the swing plane is upwards (we do not want to sky the disc!), the hips and shoulders go at the same time rather than separation happening in this drill, and the movement is directly forward, rather than at the target (disc golf target) through a closed position. But, it can show you how to throw your hips forward (way too aggressively) and end up in a cleared and balanced position, rather than jamming up. If this causes more issues than helps, then simply ignore it.

Thanks slowplastic. Interesting idea. I can see what you mean in the earlier swings. I'm not quite sure exactly how to understand powerful hips yet, but this looks like it might help get the feel.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, I must be confusing weightshift and the push off the rear foot.

Just so I can get clear: let's define weight shift as simply the movement of weight from the rear foot to the front foot. (In an X-step this goes from 100% rear/0% front to 0% rear / 100% front. In a standstill throw it may not be quite 100% but it'll be close. And in the dinglearm and other drills, it's not quite as much either.

Just think of weight as a scale reading under each foot. The dinglearm is almost 100% weight shifting even though the feet barely move. If you change your width of stance, it should feel much easier/effective in a narrow stance.

Let's define driving the hips as the linear shift of the hips in the direction of the target that gets your front femur locked into the hip joint and hence your momentum braced behind the inside of your plant leg. This is like 1-2" inches of shift, but it is crucial.

The "linear shift" is actually the rear hip moving/rotating/clearing targetward in the backswing from behind you a la Hogan Power Move and maintains it's leverage and position into the forward swing.

Let's define rear leg push as the force in the direction of your target generated by pushing of the instep/ball of the rear foot. This can be a pretty powerful motion, as there is a lot of stored energy here (if you are braced against the rear leg in the backswing) that can be transferred upwards leading to an explosion of power into the disc. (I think this is what SW22 is calling "torque".)

You push your weight(heel) up, but the foot pivots or everts as it maintains torque. See sevam1 vids "right foot", and "eversion".

Let's define clearing the hips to be the clockwise (RHBH) external rotation of the pelvis from in-line to the target to faced up to the target that happens naturally as a consequence of proper bracing / pivot /follow-through.

The front hip clears in the forward swing.

Finally, let's define lag to be the differential between the lower body rotation and the upper body rotation. The more rotated your lower body is while your upper body is still in the backswing, the more "lag".

That is the X-factor definition/(mis)interpretation of lag explained in the Hogan vid ^ above. Everything still needs to work together.

Okay, so I want to know how all these concepts work together in a proper throw. The way I'm currently conceptualizing it: is that basically the rear leg push does everything else. It causes the weightshift and the drive of the hips simultaneously, which puts you into a braced position. If you have just the right amount of lag, this force from the rear leg push travels up the brace until your hips clear and the momentum syncs up with the shoulder swing at the right time to explode onto the disc.

Yes and no. Momentum is what drives everything.

But a lot of things I've read, and seen on video, etc. seem to suggest that the weightshift and rear leg push are somewhat independent of one another. Almost as if an early weightshift starts the throw and sets you up for a powerful rear leg push and simultaneous drive of the hips. If a rear leg push into the weightshift means your torque/power is already "spent" then it seems like it'd need to be delayed.

Yes to the first part. No to the second part... see below and vid ^ above.

Of course, there must be some level of push into the weightshift or else it wouldn't happen (right?).

Depends on if you are already moving forward.

And obviously if 100% of your weight has already shifted, then your rear foot is effectively off the ground and you've got nothing left for the rear leg to push.

So how should I be thinking about this?

No. The rear foot pivots/everts and counters airborne to maintain torque and weight shifting. See end of Using Core vid ^ above, Hershyzer, Feldy's Hip to Sky.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some more stuff to digest, some of it may sound contradictory, but to me it's all the same thing and it's just your width of stance and forward speed that vary things. It's also hard to really differentiate between some linear and rotational movements as things are perceived/experienced and felt differently than seen or what is actually happening.

 

[banzai7]

Wow, okay that is really really helpful. Two key light bulbs just went off in my head.

#1. The idea (from the Shawn Clement Ben Hogan vid) that the linear shift in the hips actually occurs in the backswing roughly when your rear hip goes targetward.

#2. The idea (from the Maves/Elkington clinic) that BOTH feet keep their "counterclockwise rotation" --- screwing into the ground --- until the navel swings front.

The key takeway from #1 is that I was focused too much on shifting my hips into the brace after the weight shift. But if you keep that rear hip high and stationary during the rear foot push, your spine is already aligned to your plant leg.

The key takeway from #2 needs a bit of explanation. The rear foot counterclockwise rotation braces you in the backswing and applies pressure from behind so you're going to weightshift forward. The counterclockwise rotation in your front foot resists that forward momentum. The rear foot rolls to the instep/ball while the front foot *stays* screwed in counterclockwise! This allows me to really feel a strong squeeze between my thighs, and I'm really knock-kneed. At a certain point, you can't hold against it any more and the plant foot starts to feel "screwed" in the ground clockwise, and because the right femur is still locked in to the right hip you're still braced while the rear leg counterbalances behind.

I'll have to get out and throw but it seems like this might be just the tweak I need to really stay compact and braced *behind* my instep instead of on top of it.

Thanks a lot for this. I feel like I've got a much better grip on the mechanics.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sounds like you are getting it. Another key commonality between Shawn Clement and Mike Maves in those vids is they talk about giving themselves room/access to swing through and getting the body out of the way of momentum, or as in disc golf we call it a power pocket.

 

[banzai7]

Had a pretty good field session this morning. These definitely feel better -- I can feel the tightness in lead hip in the finish. But I'm still not sure it's right.

Anyway, I'm sure you're all getting sick of me posting on here, but I feel like I might be close and I'm determined to get it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Look at where your elbow is relative to McBeth before it starts extending. You should also keep your rear foot closer to the ground, you keep kicking it up which puts you over the top.

 

[banzai7]

Ah, I could tell I was coming over the top on some. But I didn't know why. Thanks for catching that.

On the McBeth elbow thing ... my elbow looks high (I'd like to work on a lower pull line eventually), and much farther forward. Am I extending the elbow too early?

On that particular McBeth throw, though, he is really slinging the disc from his rear shoulder, barely making it to his left pec before his forearm swings out. What I mean is that he never makes it to the right pec on that throw. He's still throwing way farther than I can ... but I thought the aim is to get to the power pocket under the right pec.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'd say you are extending too late, there's too much laxity in your arm from your body. You should feel your arm/disc pulling from your shoulder socket and wanting to continue toward the target. You are taking the right pec drill/idea too literal and not creating a smooth swing. Getting the disc further into the pocket creates more spin, while the left pec area creates more speed/power. Swing height varies by your balance.

 

[banzai7]

Huh, interesting. I can work on timing for a smoother swing.

But the footwork, weightshift, bracing looks okay?

 

[sidewinder22]

Not quite because you keep ending up over the top, partly because your swing plane or lack of. I think you need a heavier hammer to swing around and throw. You keep swinging with your hand above your elbow.

I'm throwing a 7lb sledgehammer in this video. You have to swing upward from the inside out.


Your rear foot should be making more of a Greg Norman slide move forward/behind:

 

[slowplastic]

I agree with everything SW22 said in the last few posts. You need to get "over" the disc a bit more, so it goes through the power pocket where you feel like you're on top of it as it's coming through your torso area. As well your rear foot kicks up for some reason. Don't really think about pushing hard off of that rear foot, it may create some of the weird lift and things that are happening. I know I have mentioned several times about having a shift into the brace, rather than dragging into the brace, but it's a smooth continued momentum transfer, and it's the timing of it that changed for me...I'm definitely not pushing my rear foot like crazy. If anything I concentrate on that internal loading of the rear hip in the backswing, and my balance happens to be on the instep/toes of the rear foot.

I also agree with the elbow position...I used to have my elbow too far forward and it lead to some very floaty/spin shots that would hit 350+ without much effort...but I feel like having the disc a little farther back now gets me better arm speed. Really these things kind of fix themselves after time, you just have to experiment with what feels smooth and powerful, and eventually when your hip and weight shift timing are correct you end up going through the correct upper body positions every time for a smooth throw. It's just tough because it requires like 10 things to happen correctly, but it does work out eventually.

 

[banzai7]

Not quite because you keep ending up over the top, partly because your swing plane or lack of. I think you need a heavier hammer to swing around and throw. You keep swinging with your hand above your elbow.

I'm throwing a 7lb sledgehammer in this video. You have to swing upward from the inside out.

Your rear foot should be making more of a Greg Norman slide move forward/behind:

Great, thanks for the feedback. That's helpful. I'll work on it. I get the eversion thing, and that's something I can work on. I'm noticing that I'm pushing too hard /accelerating off the left foot, and not applying constant pressure. When I consciously try to do the Greg Norman thing, it feels less like a push off the ball of the foot and more like constant pressure off the instep/big toe.

I don't have any heavier hammers. I do have some old golf clubs ... ?