Nikko LoCastro intimidating a PDGA official at European Open '22

[Nale72]

Author makes some good points.

I believe the consideration for Nikko's livelihood needs to be counterbalanced with consideration for the livelihood of the players who are affected by Nikko's shenanigans.

I know mcbeth publically supports Nikko, but I'd love to hear how he feels about playing on a card with Nikko when all the nonsense is happening.

About Nikko´s livelihood. If I understand the standpoint of the author, then the suspension in cases like this should be shorter the more famous and better the player in question was, which don't seem right to me. These players should be more of role models for others and should therefor not be judged more lightly (timewise).

 

[seedlings]

About Nikko´s livelihood. If I understand the standpoint of the author, then the suspension in cases like this should be shorter the more famous and better the player in question was, which don't seem right to me. These players should be more of role models for others and should therefor not be judged more lightly (timewise).

Be fun to see an official PDGA Sportsman Role Model ranking list, and players scrapping to the top spot. Give a round rating for the score and a Role Model ranking for their attitude during the round. Maybe cash prizes for top players.

 

[Rastnav]

I did click the article. It is well thought out and well written. I don't think it has any merit. The discussion of changing rules or administrative process is interesting, but a new and different discussion. There are simple, enforceable rules for the time violation, Nikko's disgusting behavior and his refusal to cooperate. His behavior, could be argued to be the ugliest and worst violation in the game, to date. It strikes at the integrity and fabric of the game. We cannot allow players to physically accost other players or officials when called on a rules infraction. CANNOT.

I postulate that using hockey, baseball, basketball...as points of comparison is wrong. Marble racing, footgolf or caroms....perhaps. Using financial loss or hardship is irrelevant. Do we vary punishment based on earnings or endorsements?

Nikko physically intimidated an official, MORE THAN ONCE, upon being called for a violation. (I REPEAT....FOR BEING CALLED ON A VIOLATION). He then refused to cooperate with the sanctioning body, when asked for information on the transgression. I simply do not see ANY argument, that lends credence to the idea that he was treated harshly, by his punishment. I don't think the article presents any point that supports that.

I, honestly have no qualms with the entire process. I think it was handled quickly, professionally and punishment doled out for the right reasons. If this were to happen at my local C Tier....I would hope for the same. Really, I think both should see more than 9 months.

OK, then I have no idea why, in the post I responded to, and again in this post, your starting point was that he wasn't suspended for excessive time. Absent the omnipresent "I'm always wrong brigade", I don't think people are arguing that Nikko's behavior wasn't wrong, nor that the time violation call makes it OK, nor that it doesn't merit punishment. That Nikko's behavior was wrong and punishable seems like a given in the article and it what I've said. He was punished, immediately, by being DQed.

What behavior of this sort would merit a DQ but not a suspension? Just yelling at the official but not walking up to him? Where is the line between a 1 tournament suspension and a 9 month suspension?

Would you support a 10 year ban? A lifetime ban? If not, I think you are open to the idea that the actions and the punishment should be fit to each other. If you would support them, well, I just think you aren't correct.

As to comparing your local C-tier to pro disc golf at the highest level, I don't know, that seems like the inverse of the little league parents and coaches who start acting like Johnny's game is the World Series. I know your basic stance is, essentially, that pro disc golf can go jump in a lake, but, I don't think that is commensurate with reality.

 

[Rastnav]

Be fun to see an official PDGA Sportsman Role Model ranking list, and players scrapping to the top spot. Give a round rating for the score and a Role Model ranking for their attitude during the round. Maybe cash prizes for top players.

Who will be disc golf's Lady Byng?

 

[txmxer]

Someone please explain to me how the PDGA took away Nikko's opportunity to make a living throwing plastic?

If I get drunk and get busted for DUI, it's the police fault that I lose my license?

 

[ru4por]

Someone please explain to me how the PDGA took away Nikko's opportunity to make a living throwing plastic?

If I get drunk and get busted for DUI, it's the police fault that I lose my license?

I think many believe that actions should not have consequences. There is always fault to be divided.

Maybe the bar that served you is at fault. The car manufacturers for failing to have DUI prevention functionality. The beer company for making a 5.5% craft beer. The beer mug company for making their vessels too easy to drink out of.

 

[Hampstead]

Someone please explain to me how the PDGA took away Nikko's opportunity to make a living throwing plastic?

If I get drunk and get busted for DUI, it's the police fault that I lose my license?

Does this prevent him from hosting clinics or putting out YouTube content?

 

[Flick Maniac]

Someone please explain to me how the PDGA took away Nikko's opportunity to make a living throwing plastic?

If I get drunk and get busted for DUI, it's the police fault that I lose my license?

As an aside, not sure how it works in the US, but in Finland in some cases if you can present to the police that you really have no other way getting to your job, they may be more lenient in pulling your license or not. Of course, the more serious cases, sorry buddy, you figure it out.

 

[Countchunkula]

I think many believe that actions should not have consequences. There is always fault to be divided.

Maybe the bar that served you is at fault. The car manufacturers for failing to have DUI prevention functionality. The beer company for making a 5.5% craft beer. The beer mug company for making their vessels too easy to drink out of.

But, but officer, I was over-served! Hic!

 

[robdeforge]

What behavior of this sort would merit a DQ but not a suspension? Just yelling at the official but not walking up to him? Where is the line between a 1 tournament suspension and a 9 month suspension?

Class A Offenses are the most serious category, and generally involve actual harm to other players. Physical battery, sexual assault, credible threats of imminent harm to another player, stalking, and intimidation are among potential Class A offenses. Class A offenses carry a standard penalty of a 24-month suspension followed by twelve months of probation. Aggravating factors may lead the Committee to consider penalties up to or including a permanent ban. Mitigating factors may lead the Committee to consider lesser penalties.

Class B Offenses generally involve intentional subversion of the Rules of Play, dishonesty, or cheating. Purposeful misuse or misinterpretation of the Rules of Play and/or Competition Manual to gain a competitive advantage, purposefully misreporting scores of any player, impersonating another PDGA member, or refusing to provide the name associated with the player's PDGA membership and/or PDGA number when competing are among potential Class B offenses. The purposeful filing of a frivolous or baseless complaint to the Committee is also a Class B offense. Class B offenses carry a standard penalty of a twelve-month suspension followed by twelve months of probation. Aggravating factors may lead the Committee to consider penalties up to or including a permanent ban from PDGA events. Mitigating factors may lead the Committee to consider lesser penalties.

Class C Offenses generally involve instances where intent is difficult to prove, but there is an articulable and provable pattern of misbehavior. Harassment without physical threat (such as, but not limited to, discrimination on the basis of sex, race or color, ethnic or national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs, or disability; unwanted sexual advances; or racist, sexist, or prejudiced language or epithets), repeated failure to adhere to the Rules of Play without proof of intent to cheat, and habitual violations of courtesy rules are among potential Class C offenses. Class C offenses carry a standard penalty of a six-month suspension followed by three months of probation. Aggravating factors may lead the Committee to consider penalties up or including a twelve-month suspension with six months of probation. Mitigating factors may lead the Committee to consider lesser penalties.

If Nikko had not continued to pursue the official, get in his face, and attempt to intimidate him, I think his actions may have fallen under a Class C Offense.

 

[dmoore1998]

If Nikko had not continued to pursue the official, get in his face, and attempt to intimidate him, I think his actions may have fallen under a Class C Offense.

Which is probably irrelevant...given that a Class C offense is a "standard" 6 month suspension, with factors that could raise it to 1 year. And he got 9 months.

At least IMO, this seems like a classic "the definition puts him into Class A, but the actual intent of the rules will give him a Class C". Seems like they likely looked at it, called it an A but punished it like a C.

 

[dehaas]

No idea how close the two are now, but a looooong time ago and very briefly I want to think, Bradley Williams was sponsored by Gateway.

I managed to show up when Dave Mac and crew was dropping the baskets at Silver Lake Park and played a few holes with all of them. This was over 10 years ago but I remember Bradley being a lot of fun to talk to.

Nikko would be wise to reach out to him and see if there is anything he can learn from Bradley's experience in time out, what he did to overcome whatever issues he had, and what it was like coming back and having to rebuild sponsor relationships.

 

[DanJon]

It most certainly should not have happened the way it did. It screamed targeting and prejudicial enforcement. Just by the fact of the official being with the card for such a long period of time. Time limits on time warnings is the one major change that can fix this. I mean, the other players could have been violating the time limit as well, but if they didn't have the warning, then they couldn't have been penalized for taking the exact same amount of time as Nikko. The whole thing stinks to high heaven if you ask me.

Once again, both Nikko and Chandler Kramer had been given time warnings earlier in the round.

Please let me know that you've received this message, because I feel like you're very confused.

 

[DanJon]

I have seen a lot of people comparing Nikko's actions to what takes place in baseball, basketball, football and hockey.

My response is, did we model our sport after those? Or was it a different sport where this type of behavior would result in suspension and huge fines?

No one responds back to me after I mention that.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Once again, both Nikko and Chandler Kramer had been given time warnings earlier in the round.

Please let me know that you've received this message, because I feel like you're very confused.

"Other players" being those on different cards as well. And were Chandler and Nikko timed on every throw or were just selective arbitrary throws timed? How many holes did Nikko play without being timed before this occurred? I know under a literal interpretation of the rules it doesn't matter, but in real life and sportsmanship it matters a whole lot.

 

[Three Putt]

The suspension was not for excessive time. His behavior is abhorrent. Justifying or defending his aggressive behavior toward an official, is wrong. Setting a precedent, that officials WILL be listened to and respected, is paramount to ANY discussion of growing the sport.

Again we get back to this idea of the volunteer officials and the slippery slope. So if a agree to be an official and I have some beef with Dynamic Discs, can I make crap-ass calls against Dynamic-sponsored players with the idea that the players HAVE to listen to and respect me? Acting like the officials could never be in the wrong and giving the players zero protection might be why McBeth seems to always come down on the side of the players.

 

[prokebyt]

(Hey all, author of the UW article here, just here to discuss, I know it's a hot topic and I think the arguments on both sides are perfectly valid.)

I have seen a lot of people comparing Nikko's actions to what takes place in baseball, basketball, football and hockey.

My response is, did we model our sport after those? Or was it a different sport where this type of behavior would result in suspension and huge fines?

No one responds back to me after I mention that.

For me personally I agree, the PDGA has the sole prerogative to set the rules of its sport and there is no inherent reason they need to model after any other sport.

I tried to be clear in the article that the examples were meant to be illustrative and not conclusive on their own merits.

The hill that I am willing to die on is that comparisons to other sports provide value to the conversation because touring disc golfers deserve to be recognized as professional athletes. If an organization is treating a class of people wildly different than industry standards it is worthy of public scrutiny.

Especially as the PDGA and DGPT take no half measures in promoting the tour as a professional sport.

 

[DatRedDude]

Someone please explain to me how the PDGA took away Nikko's opportunity to make a living throwing plastic?

If I get drunk and get busted for DUI, it's the police fault that I lose my license?

There are plenty of non sanctioned smaller events and leagues he could make 20's of dollars on. He could also get a job at Best Buy and make just as much over the next 9 months looking at his winnings this year.

 

[dmoore1998]

Again we get back to this idea of the volunteer officials and the slippery slope. So if a agree to be an official and I have some beef with Dynamic Discs, can I make crap-ass calls against Dynamic-sponsored players with the idea that the players HAVE to listen to and respect me? Acting like the officials could never be in the wrong and giving the players zero protection might be why McBeth seems to always come down on the side of the players.

Can you make crap-ass calls against Dynamic sponsored players, and the players have to listen to you and respect you? Well you don't have to "respect" anyone...but you probably have to listen to them. You can disagree with them...but you can't run up on them like you wanna fight them.

I'm not sure what "zero protection" looks like here. You aren't giving players any more protection by letting them act like *******s and run up on officials like they wanna fight. That's not protecting the players. Protecting the players is what happens right after the round...when Nikko was asked to speak to the TD about the situation so it could be figured out...to which he apparently declined to participate.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

(Hey all, author of the UW article here, just here to discuss, I know it's a hot topic and I think the arguments on both sides are perfectly valid.)



For me personally I agree, the PDGA has the sole prerogative to set the rules of its sport and there is no inherent reason they need to model after any other sport.

I tried to be clear in the article that the examples were meant to be illustrative and not conclusive on their own merits.

The hill that I am willing to die on is that comparisons to other sports provide value to the conversation because touring disc golfers deserve to be recognized as professional athletes. If an organization is treating a class of people wildly different than industry standards it is worthy of public scrutiny.

Especially as the PDGA and DGPT take no half measures in promoting the tour as a professional sport.

You will be fighting an uphill battle on this site, although I for one, agree with most all you have written. They don't want input from any other sport, no matter how much more sense it makes, or the history and experience those sports have over disc golf. "Disc golf is disc golf so stop trying to make it something else" is what i hear over and over in various ways. If you want to know what kind of people reside here, just look beneath my signature. The fact that the admins do this to people, should be all you need to know about this website.