DG DVD Rant

[Chainchaser]

For Dave Feldbergs interview I really just was not prepared for the amount of people that showed up, as I have stated before. I did have about 15 questions printed out to ask including the one about the video of the putt that kicked out, and I sent all my questions to dave before hand. The problem was that all the people that showed up, and I have stated this several times, kind of threw us all off. It was hard to ignore all the people that showed up, so I didn't, and it did make things a bit rough but in the end the info Dave gave I think was great and really made the ridicule I got for doing it all worth it. As far as the avery interview I did post on this and Disc golf course review forum and needless to say that on the other forum they posted questions to ask, on this one they did not. The thing is we had over a hundred people logged in and I was not going to let them sit there and not participate. If it made my interview bad, so be it, I would still do it again because those people decided to get involved.

As far as practicing I try as much as possible. Even the funny looks I get from people that drive by me on the highway going to work don't bother me. But I do have a 40 hour a week job, 2 teenage boys, a wife and 3 dogs so time is limited. I wish I had all the time in the world to do it but that is not reality as it is probably not for most people trying to do stuff like this. I am going to try to continue to do it and I guess according to most I can't get much worse. :shock:

 

[Frank Delicious]

What really blows me away is how critical people are. Try doing something else besides sitting on your computer and typing a message. It's really not that easy. Take me for example I am trying to get Discgolftalkradio.com off the ground. I am not a professional announcer what so ever and never claimed to be. I have asked over and over again for help and have had some response but truly very little. I may suck but at least I am trying. I spent an hour on the radio with dave feldberg that was great and spent more than 2 hours on the radio with avery jenkins that was unbelievable. On that interview I at least had the disc golf guy come on which was not only a surprise but really an added relief for me.

Instead of whining try doing a video or a interview and see how hard it truly is. Heck I do videos of some other stuff and it really is unbelievable how hard it is to edit not to mention how long it takes. On the radio show it can take me up to 3 hours to edit an hour program. I edited the Avery interview and then realized that you could hear me breathing in the background. I had a cold and just didn't realize I was breathing so hard so I had to spend another 3 hours doing it over. I have had several people give some advice which is great and I appreciate it but still it's really not enough. You guys say that amateur announcers or maybe not quite up to par video are the problem but truly there are no real professional sports announcers out there wanting to do disc golf. I agree matt lacourte, billy crump, crazy, disc golf guy and many others are not the best and I think they would be the first to admit it, I know I am, but at least they are doing it which is more than most can say. It''s easy typing on a forum try actually doing it in front of a camera or mic. Sorry just a rant from the other side of things.

This is a pretty bad argument to use. Saying something is really hard so we should cut people who aren't very good at that something is just making excuses. There are a lot of people out there producing high quality videos of all types of things so I don't see why I can't criticize the people making bad DG videos. Just because something is hard or something has no experience doing something doesn't mean I can't call them on their shitty product.

 

[JR]

Because even crappy videos take time to make it doesn't exactly encourage people to make better ones when they get so much positive feedback. It is even worse for doing HD vs DVD quality. And way worse doing long HD pieces vs short ones. Anyone can pull off those short clips because you can upload the original clip without editing if you want to. No editing software required Frank you may not have an idea how ridiculously difficult some things are. We've had interesting discussions with Finnish players on Finnish Frisbee Association pages and even more with emails with lcgm8. in our case you're gonna receive shitty vodeo compared to what we can do in the Dutch Open 2010 for free just because it was a side project and we had no time to make it as good as we would have liked to. It is not that because we couldn't rality just set in and we have to polish the most important projects. That is the videos we were asked to do by the event organizers. Dutch Open wasn't one of those. Hey the upside is that you all can soon get access to a free HD non raped by Youtube video. The video quality is something else and so is the feeling of being there. Too bad it doesn't truly showcase all the advantages of HD because i was learning the camera and the autofocus slowness after about 7x zoom threw me off. I was afraid to push the zoom so the ease of seeing discs through trees isn't as good vs a DVD as it could have been.

Frank do you honestly expect people to put in hundreds of hours into one project at the cost of not throwing and sacrificing a lot of other stuff from personal life while paying for it? Like we have done so far. We are way in the red and combined at well over a thousand hours of work without pay at this time. We've sold just a few copies of Tali Open 2009 and that's it. I haven't seen one cent. It isn't exactly encouraging people demanding, demanding, demanding then criticizing when they understand as much as a pig does about windmills. Not that they are insignificant but man you are misinformed. Or should i say not informed well at all. I can safely say that we're a few steps ahead of the crowd. When we can't offer Hollywood quality it comes from outside limitations not because we haven't thought of stuff. Or are hampered by a bazillion things.

All the stuff we've received have been constructive criticism and meant well but it is discouraging to see how rudimentary and idealistic the view of the public is about the difficulty and limitations. It's like listening to a madman. No bearing on reality. Sure we could be Spielbergs if we hadn't a ball and a chain in the form of ridiculously unfinished products pulling us down. And free time and energy being a limitation. Things would be different if we had Hollywood quality editing software that costs dozens of times more. Or getting paid. Even minimum wage not millions. And so many other things that you most likely aren't aware of. It's like having a hammer without a head for us. Except the handle is greased. And cleaned and then more grease oozes out. I don't have a count how many times lcgm8 has installed the operating system and how many times more the editing software. Then reparation of the bazillions of things that don't go right with installation and so on. Have you heard the saying are we in a hurry or shall we do it with a computer?

It is easy to demand anyone can do that usually they are called managers, presidents etc. but getting it done seems to be a little more rare and demands more than waah i can't talk so i cry out mommy give me milk. If this sounds condescending please take it so if you wanna. It's what it is and if you take it this falsely as criticism it's up to you. What i am saying is that i also want wars to cease without killing off the human race or insulating people so that they can't get at each other. If wishes were horses. Reality is different and i'd like to see how comments of others would change if they knew the stuff lcgm8 especially has had to trudge through. I wouldn't have made the vids that way. That would have condemned future of the sport to different less good looking things. lcgm8 has interesting projects going on and if they succeed everyone benefits. Can't talk about them now.

Chainchaser have you thought of not accepting questions during the interview and only using pre sent questions to make your job easier? Maybe even the person being interviewed would have better answers if they could see the questions beforehand? Once that runs fine you can stretch your legs more. Sometimes it's better ease into it than jump to the deep end.

Have you practiced while walking your dogs? That would keep you more time and i think the dogs wouldn't mind

 

[Chainchaser]

What really blows me away is how critical people are. Try doing something else besides sitting on your computer and typing a message. It's really not that easy. Take me for example I am trying to get Discgolftalkradio.com off the ground. I am not a professional announcer what so ever and never claimed to be. I have asked over and over again for help and have had some response but truly very little. I may suck but at least I am trying. I spent an hour on the radio with dave feldberg that was great and spent more than 2 hours on the radio with avery jenkins that was unbelievable. On that interview I at least had the disc golf guy come on which was not only a surprise but really an added relief for me.

Instead of whining try doing a video or a interview and see how hard it truly is. Heck I do videos of some other stuff and it really is unbelievable how hard it is to edit not to mention how long it takes. On the radio show it can take me up to 3 hours to edit an hour program. I edited the Avery interview and then realized that you could hear me breathing in the background. I had a cold and just didn't realize I was breathing so hard so I had to spend another 3 hours doing it over. I have had several people give some advice which is great and I appreciate it but still it's really not enough. You guys say that amateur announcers or maybe not quite up to par video are the problem but truly there are no real professional sports announcers out there wanting to do disc golf. I agree matt lacourte, billy crump, crazy, disc golf guy and many others are not the best and I think they would be the first to admit it, I know I am, but at least they are doing it which is more than most can say. It''s easy typing on a forum try actually doing it in front of a camera or mic. Sorry just a rant from the other side of things.

This is a pretty bad argument to use. Saying something is really hard so we should cut people who aren't very good at that something is just making excuses. There are a lot of people out there producing high quality videos of all types of things so I don't see why I can't criticize the people making bad DG videos. Just because something is hard or something has no experience doing something doesn't mean I can't call them on their shitty product.

Really don't get it do you. When you put yourself out of your comfort zone and produce a video or better yet how about coming on the radio show and help out then you can talk. Lets do this, the next show I do, how about you come on and help out and if you are the man I will give you the domain name, no charge, show you how to do it and I will go on to other things and let you do it. Remember you have to dedicate at least 10-15 hours a week to produce , do and edit the show plus the pay really sucks!!!!!. Like I said it's easy to sit back after the fact, believe me I do it all the time, but it is totally a different story when you are doing it and even harder when it's live. I will announce my next show and frank you are more than welcome to come on and help out, maybe your the next big thing which is fine with me. As I have said if someone comes along and is really good at it and is willing to commit the time to it I will help out as much as I can to make the show a success. Doesn't really matter if it's me or someone else.

 

[Chainchaser]

One other thing and really this will be my last thing I say on this. I don't think any of us are trying to make excuses for the quality or lack thereof, but more for people to understand that very few of us make money off this, It really takes a toll on our free time and for most of us it has cost money that we may never recoup. So yea we do ask for some slack and understanding for the way our show looks or sounds because we are doing something that really puts a lot of burden on us. I am remodeling my bathroom right now and the radio show has to take the back burner so just remember when you hate that we have other things in life we do and maybe if you would step up to the plate we could do better videos or talk shows.

 

[JR]

I'm sure that neither of us means to bite anyones head off. I can tell that people trying to give advice on A when you're at ABC is frustrating given you have already done F and know you could do more with more time and better equipment. If it was available for the money available that is free. And if you had the time and the energy to pull polishing things off. And when people don't appreciate the amount of work that has been done and ask for building a pyramid on the side. If people counted the broadcasted minutes of vidoes on Youtube channels lcgm8 and mfranssila and multiplied that by ****loads and calculated how much it has cost for basically no return...

Live is even worse. You can ask for clarifications in an interview but you can't ask the players to throw again So i have experience of what chainchaser is talking about and i symphatize. Am there, have been and will be and have gotten several teeshirts so it's a welcome change to get a wind jacket for the Dutch Open 2011

By the way i joined the PDGA and still i ain't competing so that's another cost. Money spent and still not competing in the event abroad.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Really don't get it do you. When you put yourself out of your comfort zone and produce a video or better yet how about coming on the radio show and help out then you can talk. Lets do this, the next show I do, how about you come on and help out and if you are the man I will give you the domain name, no charge, show you how to do it and I will go on to other things and let you do it. Remember you have to dedicate at least 10-15 hours a week to produce , do and edit the show plus the pay really sucks!!!!!. Like I said it's easy to sit back after the fact, believe me I do it all the time, but it is totally a different story when you are doing it and even harder when it's live. I will announce my next show and frank you are more than welcome to come on and help out, maybe your the next big thing which is fine with me. As I have said if someone comes along and is really good at it and is willing to commit the time to it I will help out as much as I can to make the show a success. Doesn't really matter if it's me or someone else.

Sorry, if someone produces a bad quality product I'm gonna not buy/watch/listen to it and that is that. I am not gonna cut a person any slack just because they don't know what they are doing or what they are doing is hard.

If I came on your show, the inevitable poor job I would do is exactly the thing I dislike in most DG videos being put out. I would do bad because I have no idea what I am doing and it would show (hear?). But I wouldn't want anyone to cut me any slack just because I had no idea what I was doing. I would expect people to tell me I did a poor job and not listen. If you put a product out there that is sub-par quality I am not gonna cut you any slack, I am just not going to watch/listen to your product.

p.s. I wasn't attacking you in the post, just saying that making excuses for producing something sub-par is pretty weak.

 

[Ryan C]

I agree with Frank. Youtube shows that talented amateurs being paid nothing can still make polished and entertaining videos. JR, I know that you guys are talented. You have gotten a lot of love on here.

But sucking at something that very few people are even trying is still sucking at something.

Chainchaser, that isn't directed at you specifically. I thought your Avery Jenkins interview was a vast improvement over Feldbergs. No one is going to start out as good at something as they may eventually become. But that's all the slack anyone is going to get in my mind. I will watch shitty DG videos sometimes, because I have a strong desire to watch DG videos, but I can still point out whats wrong with them.

 

[JR]

I agree with you Ryan and Frank poor quality is poor quality (at least relatively to what we really can do) and we've made it too. That is one of the reasons why we have released The Dutch Open 2010 for free.

My point is keep on piling shit on people with limitations and the result will be ok fuck this i'll do something else then and will be happier since the effort ain't appreciated ingrates. That is where the difficulty level and time and resource hogging come in.

Disc golf as a sport is at DIY level now and the only way to push forward is to make it better in all levels. Before getting to polished pro caliber quality without pro equipment and resources we need to get as many as possible even doing something. It will take time for people to learn. Then perhaps one day the results will be polished enough to attract outside sponsors or professionals doing the stuff for us. If we're lucky maybe some disc golfing amateurs turn out so good that they'll be professional enough to open the way to big time. For example in media coverage which is one of the main focus points for growth of the PDGA this year. Actually internet coverage got better already last year. This year they've stepped on the accelerator big time. A big thumbs up and if we can create enough critical mass and momentum major channel TV visibility may happen. That should help the sport big time. Until then it is good that as many as possible cut their teeth for future goodies.

So please give the guys volunteering a break. I know competition organizers too are volunteers and are given mostly pointless crap. At least events get organized. People want to see competitions and participate in those so there are more volunteers to arranging events. That is not yet the case for media and the amount of people capable of doing any quality media work ain't anywhere close to competition organizers. Wouldn't you want to see as much coverage of events as possible? The more coverage the more eyes there will be on the sport and that promotes growth. Hopefully in quality overall too. Lets not nip the media coverage in the bud by repeating the same mistake of unnecessary and misaimed ragging to the volunteers. Give the guys a benefit of the doubt. If they've produced something don't you think that they've handled at least a few of the problems away to make a finished product. People aren't stupid i'm sure many could do better if given infinite time and resources. Reality intervenes and compromises must be made. No matter how much it smarts the makers and the audience. There are way fewer media guys around than event organizers so lets not curb the enthusiasm of new people. Because they have a steep learning curve ahead of them and it ain't helped by uninformed comments.

If you have a problem with the quality pay someone enough to get good enough equipment and give them time. Or just play waiting for improvements. I'm hoping two events from 2010 that have been polished more will satisfy you. At least one of them is making progress. It's narration that is lacking from a finished product. That is what limitations mean. We're happy to get other hosts and therefore we are at the mercy of them delivering. Because these events are top notch quality it is great to wait for as good a product as possible. I'm not rushing anyone to do bad work. I did it in a hurry for DO2010 narration and it pisses me off to no end for the rest of my life. I don't want that for others. Limitations are what they are but i don't have to like it or the results that could be better if i had had more time to do a better job.

 

[Chainchaser]

Really don't get it do you. When you put yourself out of your comfort zone and produce a video or better yet how about coming on the radio show and help out then you can talk. Lets do this, the next show I do, how about you come on and help out and if you are the man I will give you the domain name, no charge, show you how to do it and I will go on to other things and let you do it. Remember you have to dedicate at least 10-15 hours a week to produce , do and edit the show plus the pay really sucks!!!!!. Like I said it's easy to sit back after the fact, believe me I do it all the time, but it is totally a different story when you are doing it and even harder when it's live. I will announce my next show and frank you are more than welcome to come on and help out, maybe your the next big thing which is fine with me. As I have said if someone comes along and is really good at it and is willing to commit the time to it I will help out as much as I can to make the show a success. Doesn't really matter if it's me or someone else.

Sorry, if someone produces a bad quality product I'm gonna not buy/watch/listen to it and that is that. I am not gonna cut a person any slack just because they don't know what they are doing or what they are doing is hard.

If I came on your show, the inevitable poor job I would do is exactly the thing I dislike in most DG videos being put out. I would do bad because I have no idea what I am doing and it would show (hear?). But I wouldn't want anyone to cut me any slack just because I had no idea what I was doing. I would expect people to tell me I did a poor job and not listen. If you put a product out there that is sub-par quality I am not gonna cut you any slack, I am just not going to watch/listen to your product.

p.s. I wasn't attacking you in the post, just saying that making excuses for producing something sub-par is pretty weak.

I know that's fine.
Well so much for not saying anything more on the subject. I really have no problem with people saying I suck and like i said I have tried numerous times to get someone to do this that knows how to do it but yet I get no takers. You can say I suck all you want but what i want is you to just remember that I am at least trying to do something to promote the sport and it is something that takes more time than I have to do. When ESPN or clear channel take up disc golf then i will gladly move on down the line. As of yet they have not. And frank didn't you suck a DG when you first started like most everyone did, saying you are not going to do something just because you suck at it is really a lame excuse!! :wink:

 

[Vegan Ray]

Frank sucks at living. He should quit ASAP.

 

[Frank Delicious]

I know that's fine.
Well so much for not saying anything more on the subject. I really have no problem with people saying I suck and like i said I have tried numerous times to get someone to do this that knows how to do it but yet I get no takers. You can say I suck all you want but what i want is you to just remember that I am at least trying to do something to promote the sport and it is something that takes more time than I have to do. When ESPN or clear channel take up disc golf then i will gladly move on down the line. As of yet they have not. And frank didn't you suck a DG when you first started like most everyone did, saying you are not going to do something just because you suck at it is really a lame excuse!! :wink:

You seem to think I'm still targeting your radio show (which I don't think I've actually listened to) which I am not, I am talking about DG videos.

Also I did suck at DG when I first started but that is a pretty poor analogy for a few reasons the main one being that I didn't try to pass myself off as a pro and charge money for my bad disc golf (which is what I have a problem with in DG videos, don't feed me crap and tell me it's honey).

p.s. you probably shouldn't take this thread very personally since it is a DG DVD rant and not a DG Radio rant.

 

[Chainchaser]

Ah Man just trying nudge you on and maybe get you on the show one night. I think you would be, if anything, entertaining. I think I was just more trying to defend any person who is trying to do something to promote the sport, in the end it's all cool, it just the internet. You really should listen to the interviews even though I do suck at times, they are free by the way, still it was cool being able to sit down and talk to these guys. It was a good time. Anyway the invitation is always out there Frank you would definitely be a welcomed guest on the show.