DGPT: 2021 MVP Open at Maple Hill Sept 3-5

[Flick Maniac]

It is my understanding that spotters do not make calls. OB determinations are on the player and the group. I understand the speed of play implications, but it is the player and group that have the responsibility.

Yep. I was a spotter at European Open. They told us not to make any calls. Just show the flag, or both if uncertain, and thats it. You can mark the place it went OB with a marker/flag/etc too, but even that is not a call whether the disc is OB or not.

Our local #1 is a "island hole" at the end (in ""s because there is a small isthmus there but rarely used) and even when Im at the basket and see that the disc did not ever fly over IB before fading out, sometimes a player in the group gets their way onto the island by forcing their case and if the other players bend to their will. While they are about 200 feet downhill and cant see for s***. Its how the game is just played at the current ruleset. Not my place to argue. *shrug*

 

[Rastnav]

Maybe the TD could put up a reminder in front of the DZ that says "Call a provisional".

Could a TD make a rule like "All throws from DZs are provisional"?

Or should that become the general rule?

What Steve said. Especially that last part.

If everyone should call throws provisional from drop zones every single time … it seems to me that the rules should simply make it automatic. No one is playing or watching disc golf because they want to see what amounts to a contest of formal etiquette. If a player is to be docked for a mental error, I want it to be one of disc or shot choice, not the failure to mouth the obligatory prayer at the drop zone.

 

[biscoe]

Why just drop zones? If you are going to do it then it may as well be "any shot deemed OB that turns out to be inbounds should be played out from the inbounds lie ignoring any shots made as if the disc were OB"- not sure I really like either one but that is more equitable.

I tend to see this more as a course setup issue than a rules issue anyway. Why is the wall inside the rope in such a fashion that a spotter standing right there makes the wrong call?

 

[Rastnav]

Why just drop zones? If you are going to do it then it may as well be "any shot deemed OB that turns out to be inbounds should be played out from the inbounds lie ignoring any shots made as if the disc were OB"- not sure I really like either one but that is more equitable.

I tend to see this more as a course setup issue than a rules issue anyway. Why is the wall inside the rope in such a fashion that a spotter standing right there makes the wrong call?

Well, the big difference between drop zones and other OB is that you go there no matter where your shot last crossed in bounds. So, if a disc is OB ahead without a drop zone, you are likely to need to have the card make a determination as to whether the disc crossed in bounds up ahead. Drop zones increase the likelihood that close calls won't be assessed before you make the throw from the OB. And thus a player should be declaring the shot provisional.

But sure, for any disc played as if it was OB, but without the card actually assessing the position of the disc forward of the this crossing of the OB, a player should be declaring their shot provisional. That might be a little too ambiguous for an easy rule, which is not a disadvantage that shots played from OB drop zones have.

As far the wall, I'd guess that it is in that position because they wanted to mitigate the risk of roll away into OB. They are happy to have air-mailed putts on the raised basket sail OB, but whether a disc roles or not is much more arbitrary.

 

[biscoe]

Well, the big difference between drop zones and other OB is that you go there no matter where your shot last crossed in bounds. So, if a disc is OB ahead without a drop zone, you are likely to need to have the card make a determination as to whether the disc crossed in bounds up ahead. Drop zones increase the likelihood that close calls won't be assessed before you make the throw from the OB. And thus a player should be declaring the shot provisional.

But sure, for any disc played as if it was OB, but without the card actually assessing the position of the disc forward of the this crossing of the OB, a player should be declaring their shot provisional. That might be a little too ambiguous for an easy rule, which is not a disadvantage that shots played from OB drop zones have.

I don't see the ambiguity- turns out in- play as in. Same would work for the other stuff specified in the first part of the provisional rule- possibly lost and possibly missed mando. Get rid of verbalizing the provisional all together for everything but a disagreement- play it as worst case first and then correct if needed once you have the better info.

As far the wall, I'd guess that it is in that position because they wanted to mitigate the risk of roll away into OB. They are happy to have air-mailed putts on the raised basket sail OB, but whether a disc roles or not is much more arbitrary.

I doubt that wall is there for any reason other than to show up on camera. My presumption is it is not there on a daily basis.

 

[the_lung]

Final payouts have finally been uploaded.

https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/49214

Almost two full days after the event ended!

 

[nothinbuttree]

Maybe there just needs to be a Maple Hill section in the PDGA rule book since that is where most of this type of discussion seems to happen...

I think the string issue marking OB could be tweaked as well. Simon (again) had a shot to an island green a year or 2 ago (sorry, forget which tourney) that hit perfectly, got picked up after it landed by a heavy wind and rolled to the wall surrounding the green. Well there was string just barely inside the rock wall, like literally no more than one inch off of it. Poor Simon's disc rolled right up against the wall, exactly parallel to it, and somehow was still completely outside that string, and he was ruled OB. I don't think it was considered even a possibility that could happen, but of course it did.

While we are at it, maybe we just need a special 'Simon' section of the rulebook.

 

[Rocketnumber9]

No need to change the rule, a PROFESSIONAL should know them. Kyle should have called his DZ throw a provisional if there was any doubt at all, no matter how little, in his mind that he may be in. Trust no one, especially a volunteer spotter who may be a couple beers in, and know the rules. Guarantee he won't make that mistake again. The rule is fine, take some responsibility to know them and use them to your advantage.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Pretty darn good lineup for the skins match...

 

[The Shide]

No need to change the rule, a PROFESSIONAL should know them.

Totally agree. Pros should know the rules. In my experience, a majority of all levels of players do NOT know the rules, nor take the time to even read the rules book.

 

[ToddL]

Maybe there just needs to be a Maple Hill section in the PDGA rule book since that is where most of this type of discussion seems to happen...

I think the string issue marking OB could be tweaked as well. Simon (again) had a shot to an island green a year or 2 ago (sorry, forget which tourney) that hit perfectly, got picked up after it landed by a heavy wind and rolled to the wall surrounding the green. Well there was string just barely inside the rock wall, like literally no more than one inch off of it. Poor Simon's disc rolled right up against the wall, exactly parallel to it, and somehow was still completely outside that string, and he was ruled OB. I don't think it was considered even a possibility that could happen, but of course it did.

While we are at it, maybe we just need a special 'Simon' section of the rulebook.

2019 San Francisco Open, hole 16. An absolutely incredible string of events. 16's basket sits on an island green surrounded by OB. Ad walls sit directly on top of the OB line. There's a string on the ground in addition to the walls. Caddie book was vague.

Round 2 - Anthony Barela throws a spike hyzer that hits a section of ad wall, bending it. https://youtu.be/eoyFdSQcT0s?t=1273 21:13 mark.

Round 3 - Simon Lizotte has an unfortunate roll that ends up leaning against the same section of wall that Barela's throw had bent in round 2. If Barela hadn't hit it, Simon's disc might not have been able to stand upright against it and could have fallen back in bounds. https://youtu.be/dv25OiMAkOA?t=1309 21:49 mark

I can't find the video right now, but I remember someone else's disc slipping through the gap created by the bent ad wall and ending up OB. I'll look for a few more minutes...

That's what really started my crusade against using the ad walls as the OB line. If you want to make a wall, make a wall - wood, rock, hay bales, whatever, as long as it's solid.

On hole 5 at Maple Hill, the wooden wall is permanent and serves as a fine OB line by itself.

 

[araytx]

Buddy of mine came back from Portugal a few weeks back. He had a layover in Canada. Had to take a test before he left Europe and then had to pass a rapid test when he landed in Chicago. No quarantine.

aray, looks like that Nytimes article is almost 2 months old.

I believe the difference is that your buddy is (likely) an American citizen. Simon is not, and also is likely not yet a permanent resident (green card). I think the Schengen area restriction applies to most anyone here on a visa.

Surely you checked the many more current sites to know that particular ban is still in effect.

Aug. 20: https://www.porthole.com/how-european-citizens-are-getting-around-the-us-travel-ban/

Wow, didn't know this happened last year, only the McBeth controversy. IDK what the final ruling was, but if this year's rule was applied, then wouldn't he have had 3 shots taken in error? He took a 2 based on his disc being in bounds. But since he didn't call provisional, those other shots were counted as what, playing from an improper lie, 3 times?

Anyone know how that one played out because it seems the ruling must have different than Kyle's from this year...

Whoever is in charge really needs to fix all these OB water issues. It's really ridiculous for a top notch tourney. I think this one has actually forced me to change my opinion on this entire issue as well. In watching the live coverage, and having a much better vantage point than the players because of the zoomed in camera angle, it looked ABSOLUTELY in the water. I was shocked it was not. And that is again with the zoomed in camera angle. No way any player could have guessed it was in bounds.

So what's the answer, play a provisional on EVERY throw just in case a human judgment error was made?

No, I think there should be a rule change addressing true human errors (including an official call--red flag--that turns out to be wrong) in cases like this. There is no cheating intended, and the entire card would agree they thought it was OB as well from the teepad. Do we want entire groups walking to landing zones for every OB hole, or throwing tons of provisionals?

Not sure what Simon's score on that hole ended up being, but it seems incredibly punitive if he had to take two strokes for every throw taken in error...what-is the entire group supposed to walk all the way over there? Honestly, Ricky's throw on that hole was VISIBLE from the teepad, even though it was OB. If anyone might have taken a provisional, it should have been him.

Everyone sort of praised Paul in the next round for taking the provisional he did, that he ended up winning his appeal on, but one has to wonder if this round 1 snafu is what set that chain of events in motion in his mind? Same hole even.

Concerning the Klein situation, I'm glad there are rules and glad they are followed. I don't like the situation and I think it could be better, but it is difficult to get the wording right (as with everything). Someone posted earlier a good idea to counteract this situation, but provisionals are a breeding ground for loopholes; that suggested wording would only fix this situation. For instance, the current way the rule is worded allows for legal/unpenalized practice throws in many situations (809.02). All you have to do wait until you can't see where you landed and claim that the situation isn't clear and you want to throw a provisional, rethrowing from your previous lie (809.02.B.1.a). I like the way that 809.02.B.1.b starts much better: "(if) the group agrees."

Where I'm going is: a rule could be stated in such a way that if the group agrees to everything, this situation (and similar ones) could be avoided. Specific for this case, if the group agrees that the player played the hole appropriately with the knowledge that they had at the time of each throw, then there should be no penalty. I realize that its easy to say "provisional" before every drop zone/OB shot, but why are we requiring players to jump through this silly hoop when it can be avoided?

Kind of what I was thinking. It's a very simple fix and I see little chance for harm or abuse.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure someone could come up with a scenario that this would be problematic.

Here's an idea. STOP having designs which FORCE players to the drop zone. Use the standard OB rule and DO NOT get a waiver. If you use the STANDARD out-of-bounds rule, the player will go look where his disc went OB ANYWAY!!!

No need to change the rule, a PROFESSIONAL should know them. Kyle should have called his DZ throw a provisional if there was any doubt at all, no matter how little, in his mind that he may be in. Trust no one, especially a volunteer spotter who may be a couple beers in, and know the rules. Guarantee he won't make that mistake again. The rule is fine, take some responsibility to know them and use them to your advantage.

It's really not difficult to call provisional before you throw from the drop zone. Errors happen. As a player you should be smart enough to hedge against that risk.

^ This.

A player can call provisional, head to the drop zone, make their shot in about 30 seconds and not affect "round flow." A few folks are painting these worst-case scenarios where every player is calling provisional on every hole with OB and it's backing up the entire tournament, every tournament.

The reality is that these situations happen few and far between. If there's even the slimmest doubt, take the effort to call a provisional and make a shot. It's not even a minute of time to do this.
...

Yes to all these.

Plus this wasn't the only case of the spotters wanting to become part of the game. There were at least two "green flags" on shots that eventually rolled OB, because spotters put up a flag before the disc stopped moving, basically as soon as they saw it hit fair ground. They just need to be trained correctly. What we really need is TD guidelines or standard expectations, not a re-write of this rule that'll create more issues. (The spotters eventually went back and waived red). But WHY this spotter gave the wrong signal is beyond me -- unless he/she was untrained. Any decent spotter would have given the "cross" or (as we use) "yellow" to signify it's a group decision. THAT is the question we really should be asking -- HOW was this spotter trained for the event?

 

[dehaas]

I agree with the statements regarding professionals knowing the rules their profession is bound to. Many of us work in fields where we deal with government or other regulatory standards. Noncompliance isn't excusable by ignorance. We'd all be canned pretty much on the spot for simply saying we didn't know.

However, I lolololololol very much so that the guy who founded the DGPT consistently hosts a tournament with the most ambiguity surrounding course rules.

Between the Jomez coverage referring to the poor tee conditions during the final round and wonky rulings in the past it'd be slightly ironic to see Maple Hill be forced to tighten things up…especially if the title sponsorship contract is up for renewal. If I'm picking up the tab for an inflated sponsorship bid I'd be putting heavy pressure on the venue to make sure i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

 

[nothinbuttree]

No one is suggesting these pros don't know the rules. Simon is very experienced and I'm sure knows the rules well. But there has to be some reason to call a provisional. That has been my point. They had NO reason to think a provisional needed to be called. They 100% knew they were OB. Except they weren't. Maybe Kyle's case was a bit different, but if you are going to force players to vocalize 'provisional' before every OB throw, then just change the rule.

 

[bwgort]

No one is suggesting these pros don't know the rules. Simon is very experienced and I'm sure knows the rules well. But there has to be some reason to call a provisional. That has been my point. They had NO reason to think a provisional needed to be called. They 100% knew they were OB. Except they weren't. Maybe Kyle's case was a bit different, but if you are going to force players to vocalize 'provisional' before every OB throw, then just change the rule.

If its close, call a provisional? Spotters are human volunteers who sometimes make errors. The players did not 100 percent know they were ob. If that was true then there'd be no need for a provisional.

 

[_MTL_]

The wrong questions are being asked here.

The questions aren't "why didn't the spotter know the rule" or "why didn't Kyle call a provisional" or "why isn't there an auto provisional rule for drop zones" or whatever...

it's...

"Why was the line put on the other side of the wall?"

None of these questions are even being asked if the line had been marked properly.

Someone like Steve Dodge, who has run majors and has been voted as TD of the year, shouldn't make this mistake.

 

[bwgort]

The wrong questions are being asked here.

The questions aren't "why didn't the spotter know the rule" or "why didn't Kyle call a provisional" or "why isn't there an auto provisional rule for drop zones" or whatever...

it's...

"Why was the line put on the other side of the wall?"

None of these questions are even being asked if the line had been marked properly.

Someone like Steve Dodge, who has run majors and has been voted as TD of the year, shouldn't make this mistake.

How is it a mistake by the TD if that's how it was described to players in the caddy book?

 

[teemkey]

How is it a mistake by the TD if that's how it was described to players in the caddy book?

Since there was a lot of rain, I suppose one question is whether the shore was so muddy the string was hard to see?

Also, there were three people running around the green with flags: one adult and two kids. Where all three spotters? And which one waved the red flag for Kyle's disc?

 

[bwgort]

Since there was a lot of rain, I suppose one question is whether the shore was so muddy the string was hard to see?

Also, there were three people running around the green with flags: one adult and two kids. Where all three spotters? And which one waved the red flag for Kyle's disc?

Nah, the string wasn't hard to see.

 

[Rocketnumber9]

My guess, and it is a guess, is that the rain from the remnants of Ida pushed the water line past the string and that is why spotter waved the red flag, however you would think they would know the rules of the hole they are spotting on. Bottom line until I see where my shot landed with my own eyes I'm calling DZ shot a provisional throw every time. Unless it's obvious like it splashes in the middle of the lake or something. I've even called a provisional when a shot goes into thick dense brush/kudzu just in case I can't find the original shot to save a walk back for a lost disc.