Forehand Tutorial: How to Properly Lead with the Elbow

[Nasty Nate]

Well, not that I have anything figured out but I played tonight and had some pretty good rips on the forehand! I released them on a good hyzer and I could feel the follow-through with my shoulder. I basically tried to keep the disc on a straight line when I threw and it seemed to make a difference. I didn't have a chance to get any video because it was late and we had to hurry.

I just wanted to say something because even though my putting was terrible I made some pretty good shots with my forehand! Arm feels alright but I could still feel a very slight usage after playing ~20 holes with a handful+ or forehand drives and ups. I probably made like 10 FH shots or something. I ended up -1 from the shorts. I'll do better next time. My friend almost hit a few aces! He had some great lines.

 

[gammaxgoblin]

It feels like it's around my elbow... kind of front and back. I'm not quite sure how to describe it. Maybe part of my bicep and tricep? I dunno. Doesn't feel good.

I get this when I try to throw too much with my arm and/or when my arm isn't warmed up. To get past this I've had to learn to throw it more betterly correct. One thing which helps me alot is to really start the forward motion slow, like it feels like it will go 20 feet, bit then accelerate to release. It feels to me what I see when I watch Hokom through. So slow to start then smooth accelerate. Also I've found that dipping my right shoulder, allows me to get my elbow further out in front which also takes some stress off the elbow for me. Fwiw, just my recent thinking.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Primal]

Thanks for the tips.

So I've played a few times the last 10 years or so but only recently have taken it seriously. Really been reviewing form and discs and such. Wanted to first off ask is it weird to have wayyyyy better forehand drives than backhands? (I'm righty if that matters at all)
Idk if it's just more natural for me or if my tech is way better that way but it's pretty clearly a better drive for me. More power, more distance, more accuracy, more everything except elbow pain lol.
Yesterday I uncorked the best shot I've ever had. 320 ft par 3, using a shryke and let loose a beauty. Down the alley with trees on both sides, over the ravine...perfect fade right at the hole too, landed about 10 ft short of the chains for an easy birdie (my first!).

I feel like the longest I can throw backhand is about 250 and I'm absolutely a loose cannon. Mid range, approach and putts I feel confident either way but my backhand is smoother. Driving, I'm just so much better with forehands.

Also about grip, I only use middle and pointer on the rim inside with my middle finger pretty straight. I dont know if there's a better way but that really works for me.

 

[slowplastic]

I think it's a lot easier for many people to break 300' with FH than BH when getting used to things. Especially if you have a baseball or throwing background. Backhand has more distance potential at the top end, and the shot has more consistency/room for error in many instances I feel like. But I agree that it was quicker for me to learn to throw FH over 325' than backhand over 325', relatively. But I do throw backhand farther, and all the top pro's throw backhand farther.

 

[Primal]

I think it's a lot easier for many people to break 300' with FH than BH when getting used to things. Especially if you have a baseball or throwing background. Backhand has more distance potential at the top end, and the shot has more consistency/room for error in many instances I feel like. But I agree that it was quicker for me to learn to throw FH over 325' than backhand over 325', relatively. But I do throw backhand farther, and all the top pro's throw backhand farther.

Fair enough. BH definitely has more power coming from the low body and wind up but I'm lacking the form I guess. I should probably make a video and get some input from veterans on it. There's only about 6 throws on my "home" course that open up longer than that anyway.

 

[slowplastic]

There's only about 6 throws on my "home" course that open up longer than that anyway.

The other advantage I find with BH is it's easier for me to throw a slower disc cleanly. I can throw a putter or straight/understable midrange much farther BH than FH. If I need a dead straight shot 300' I can throw a BH midrange, whereas with a FH I'd have to hyzer flip a fairway driver or something like that and hope it doesn't go too long, turn too much, or show some fade.

The better your backhand is, you'll start to use more putter or mid shots in that inbetween range when you need the straightest shot possible. That being said of course you can throw putters and mids FH, I do all the time, I just feel like I have less room for error if I put more than 60-70% power on ones that aren't overstable.

 

[Primal]

The other advantage I find with BH is it's easier for me to throw a slower disc cleanly. I can throw a putter or straight/understable midrange much farther BH than FH. If I need a dead straight shot 300' I can throw a BH midrange, whereas with a FH I'd have to hyzer flip a fairway driver or something like that and hope it doesn't go too long, turn too much, or show some fade.

The better your backhand is, you'll start to use more putter or mid shots in that inbetween range when you need the straightest shot possible. That being said of course you can throw putters and mids FH, I do all the time, I just feel like I have less room for error if I put more than 60-70% power on ones that aren't overstable.

I definitely go BH on mids and putts unless there's an obstacle! The drive motion for BH is just foreign to me at the moment.

 

[tmoody]

Since I've been working on the FH throw as well, I've also been paying attention to various details in how the best forehanders do their thing. One such detail is the extent of the tilt of the upper body over the throwing hand. In the Wysocki video...

https://youtu.be/gSrK8x8OlPc

...the upper body tilt is enough to put a fair amount of daylight between his elbow and torso. For some people this is just a natural athletic way to move, but for others (such as myself) not so much. Failure to get this tilt would, in my judgment, put a lot more strain on the elbow, forcing it to swing like a saloon door.

At the 0:0:10 point in that video, Wysocki's upper arm is pretty much vertical, but his torso is angled away at about 30 degrees. For comparison purposes, if I stand straight up and angle my upper arm 30 degrees away from my body and do a throwing motion, I feel a lot less strain than if I keep my upper arm parallel to my body.

Wysocki holds that tilt all the way through the release and into the follow-through.

And check out Eric Oakley's body tilt here, at 1:55 for example. His shoulder line is almost vertical as his arm passes his body

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQT8X5SVNBY

 

[sidewinder22]

Just thought I would throw this in here:

The source of my power in my forehand is from years of playing baseball (I was throwing ~80-85 mph when I stopped playing in high school). A side arm disc golf shot is almost the exact same mechanics as a side arm baseball throw. I would recommend playing catch with a baseball (not sidearm, but don't be afraid to try a few sidearm throws for fun) to really develop your throwing mechanics, and you will see translation into sidearm distance.

 

[Grippenripp]

^Hokom's form drives me insane to watch, I don't know if the hitch in it actually hurts her power or at best just looks funny.

This clip shows Ricky's huge weight shift/brace, and elbow position pretty good.

Okay so im glad im not the only one. Sarah Hokom is a great golfer but whem i watch FPO coverage i look away whem she throws it makes me feel weird as hell to even see it.

 

[slowplastic]

Just thought I would throw this in here:

What do you think of his forearm lag plane? It looks high to me above the elbow, kind of like the mistake I make...whereas the pitcher has the forearm loaded back on plane? I mean obviously he throws way harder than me, but I'm just trying to grasp if this is correct for maybe a flex line or if he isn't optimizing it?

Also with the baseball thing...I'm actually finally throwing a ball a bit better because my disc golf sidearm feels more effortless than throwing a ball ever did for me. The sports definitely correlate to each other both ways.

 

[sidewinder22]

What do you think of his forearm lag plane? It looks high to me above the elbow, kind of like the mistake I make...whereas the pitcher has the forearm loaded back on plane? I mean obviously he throws way harder than me, but I'm just trying to grasp if this is correct for maybe a flex line or if he isn't optimizing it?

Also with the baseball thing...I'm actually finally throwing a ball a bit better because my disc golf sidearm feels more effortless than throwing a ball ever did for me. The sports definitely correlate to each other both ways.

Just tried to get into Jason's position there, appears the only difference is the amount of elbow bend tilting the lower arm/disc upward. I believe he is throwing a Cannon on high anhyzer into big tailwind.

 

[slowplastic]

Just tried to get into Jason's position there, appears the only difference is the amount of elbow bend tilting the lower arm/disc upward. I believe he is throwing a Cannon on high anhyzer into big tailwind.

That makes sense. So if he were going to throw a hyzer then he would need a bit more tilt to the side and the forearm should lag behind below level, like the pitcher. In comparison I would likely have the disc load back like he has in the picture while trying to throw flat, so it is off plane relative to my intended release angle.

 

[sidewinder22]

That makes sense. So if he were going to throw a hyzer then he would need a bit more tilt to the side and the forearm should lag behind below level, like the pitcher. In comparison I would likely have the disc load back like he has in the picture while trying to throw flat, so it is off plane relative to my intended release angle.

Either more shoulder tilt/side bend, or less elbow bend.

 

[BPC2000]

Just thought I would throw this in here:

Any thoughts on that arm position opening players up to injury? I know that the power potential is proven being that Jason holds the sidearm distance record and Darren O'Day is a MLB pitcher, but can you sustain that arm motion on the disc golf course without hurting yourself?

I checked some of O'Day's stats....as a middle reliever/closer, he mainly throws no more than 1 inning, averages around 15 pitches a night, all in quick succession, and after a full bullpen stretching and warming up routine. Jason looks to be very young and strong. He probably has the benefit of rubber band-like ligaments and muscles that come with that age. But.....

What might happen if you're playing a round on a cold day, haven't thrown sidearm for the last three holes, and just had to look for you buddy's errant tee shot for 20 mins? Then you step up to the next tee and try to go max power with your elbow that far forward? Can you keep doing that without problems?

 

[slowplastic]

What might happen if you're playing a round on a cold day, haven't thrown sidearm for the last three holes, and just had to look for you buddy's errant tee shot for 20 mins? Then you step up to the next tee and try to go max power with your elbow that far forward? Can you keep doing that without problems?

The elbow is no farther forward of the shoulder plane in the sidearm throw, and you can see in this more traditional OH arm slot the ball/forearm is loaded back a similar extent from the elbow.

I don't really know if there's much more danger with a sidearm arm slot than overhand, or just that people experiment with sidearm more and get away from the mechanics?

 

[BPC2000]

The elbow is no farther forward of the shoulder plane in the sidearm throw, and you can see in this more traditional OH arm slot the ball/forearm is loaded back a similar extent from the elbow.

Yes. I see that now that you mention it. The upper arm stays (mostly) on the same plane as the shoulders. I guess what I should have asked was can the shoulder joint rotate backwards that much in a DG situation (longer periods of rest) and expect to avoid injury? The disc also tends to be a bit heavier in a lot of cases too as a baseball comes in at around 150g.

It seems like most pros throwing sidearm arent rotating the shoulder back that far. Is it something that Jason can do because he's already had numerous warmup throws and can push it a little further when going for max distance? Im wondering if it might be dangerous in a typical 18 hole dg round? Or maybe at least something inexperienced players just starting to experiment with their sidearm should consider?

 

[sidewinder22]

Any thoughts on that arm position opening players up to injury? I know that the power potential is proven being that Jason holds the sidearm distance record and Darren O'Day is a MLB pitcher, but can you sustain that arm motion on the disc golf course without hurting yourself?

I checked some of O'Day's stats....as a middle reliever/closer, he mainly throws no more than 1 inning, averages around 15 pitches a night, all in quick succession, and after a full bullpen stretching and warming up routine. Jason looks to be very young and strong. He probably has the benefit of rubber band-like ligaments and muscles that come with that age. But.....

What might happen if you're playing a round on a cold day, haven't thrown sidearm for the last three holes, and just had to look for you buddy's errant tee shot for 20 mins? Then you step up to the next tee and try to go max power with your elbow that far forward? Can you keep doing that without problems?

Yes. I see that now that you mention it. The upper arm stays (mostly) on the same plane as the shoulders. I guess what I should have asked was can the shoulder joint rotate backwards that much in a DG situation (longer periods of rest) and expect to avoid injury? The disc also tends to be a bit heavier in a lot of cases too as a baseball comes in at around 150g.

It seems like most pros throwing sidearm arent rotating the shoulder back that far. Is it something that Jason can do because he's already had numerous warmup throws and can push it a little further when going for max distance? Im wondering if it might be dangerous in a typical 18 hole dg round? Or maybe at least something inexperienced players just starting to experiment with their sidearm should consider?

I believe most injuries are related to improper weightshift/kinetic sequence leading to poor deceleration/follow through, rather than injury happening in the lag/loading phase. The arm should be relatively looser on longer throws, not tighter. And you load against the lag/external rotation - you shouldn't be trying to externally rotate the arm, but resisting it somewhat to load like a spring. Obviously age and flexibility will play a role in how much lag happens, if you setup your backswing as I describe in the video with elbow forward and allowing the lower arm to swing back and supinated then lead with the hips, the arm lag will happen naturally. If your body is cold, then you should get your towel and warm up some practice swings before you throw.

Nolan Ryan sustained a long career:

NFL football weighs 400g+.

 

[Zanguini]

Comparing Nolan Ryan's arm to anyone else's is folly. Nolan Ryan averaged 134 pitches per game in the last 5 years of his career. The last pitch he threw at 47 years old after tearing his UCL was 98mph... Ryan threw 235 in a game 1974.

 

[sidewinder22]

Comparing Nolan Ryan's arm to anyone else's is folly. Nolan Ryan averaged 134 pitches per game in the last 5 years of his career. The last pitch he threw at 47 years old after tearing his UCL was 98mph... Ryan threw 235 in a game 1974.

I don't think there wasn't anything really special about his arm(although he claims to hit genetic lottery), but his kinetic sequence from the ground up was and IMO that is why he was able to throw so many effortlessly blazing fast pitches for nearly 30 years. Ryan is a big advocate of the long toss drill which like I was saying is about being relatively loose with the arm and using that kinetic sequence through the ground and body to whip the arm/disc/ball. From the studies I've read about pitching arm injuries they typically happen in the deceleration/follow through, due to poor kinetic sequence/weightshift and getting tired/fatigued or sloppy with it.

In relation to disc golf, if you throw 18 forehand drives in a round, it's unlikely you will be fatigued. Your main issue would be keeping warmed up, and as I mentioned in the previous post, you can use your towel to keep warm between throws.

Here's a rather interesting read:
https://www.jonahkeri.com/news/pitching-injuries-and-rangers/